Does anyone have plans for building such a system? It will be used to demonstrate the effect of electric cars on the grid. They invision people just charging at night and using the cars batteries as a spinning resrve during the day. As I see it the crux will be building a synchronous inverter. Does anyone have plans for building one or should I tell them they have to spend $2000 for a small grid tie in inverter. Any input on the subject would be welcomed. Thanks.
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Charge and discharge Batteries into grid? 1
- Thread starter epepito
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- #21
Companies like BPL already do this kind of work in Demand Respose. They use wireless networks and CTs on individual circuits to monitor available and actual power shedding. I think all the technology exists its just start up that is hard because the network is not in place and there are too few cars available in the market. Also I belive IOUs don't really have an incentive to be efficient because they generally just take a cut off the top. In the long run higher energy costs yield bigger profits for the IOUs, so why would the want 3rd parties to come and make the system more efficient and take another piece of the pie.
UtilityDave
Electrical
Maybe read up on utility ratemaking and regulation
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- #23
Are you saying utilities don't make more money when energy prices are higher, don't pass on all infrastructure costs and don't pay for power they use? They have energy reduction programs, but I believe those generaly mandated to them. Depending on what part of the country you are in getting utilities give up any part of the profit can be a real chore. They are beholden to the stockholder first and foremost not the customer.
UtilityDave
Electrical
Maybe read up on utility ratemaking and regulation.
Then you wouldn't be asking these questions.
But as a help to you, at high load times utilities use high fuel cost plants because they are cheapest to build and have short run times.
Prices to consumers are fixed by the regulator.
Simple math says utilities don't make more on consumer sales at peak.
Then you wouldn't be asking these questions.
But as a help to you, at high load times utilities use high fuel cost plants because they are cheapest to build and have short run times.
Prices to consumers are fixed by the regulator.
Simple math says utilities don't make more on consumer sales at peak.
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- #25
UtilityDave
Electrical
Lots of good reasons to do it. Just start up headaches.
Those are common.
Those are common.
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- #27
Simple math says utilities figure out what it costs to provide the energy and then figure out how much to charge for it. Unless you're saying that utilities pay for the extra costs of peak demand out of their own pocket I don't really see your point. I realize that even after deregulation they can't just charge whatever they feel like, but I certainly feel that the extra costs incuured with meeting peak demand, frequency regulation, etc. are passed on to the customer. Furthermore I believe it is also true that the more money they bring in the larger their profits will be maybe not as a percent but overall. These are privately owned companies, that is their job. I'm not trying to put them down, I'm just saying it is a fact of life.
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- #28
As a matter of fact, not all utilities make a profit. There are many not for profit utilities, that have demand managment programs, and the result is about the same. Not that many people want the utility company playing with there hotwater heater.
For this scheme to work there seems to be a lot of things that have to happen first, and each has a price tag. Who is going to pay that price? Us the tax payers?
It would seem that a much better option is to enact time of use rates and let the consumers decide the peak shaving issue.
For this scheme to work there seems to be a lot of things that have to happen first, and each has a price tag. Who is going to pay that price? Us the tax payers?
It would seem that a much better option is to enact time of use rates and let the consumers decide the peak shaving issue.
Hi epepito.
I was referring to something like MathCad or Mathworks.
I don't see how one car set up to do this would help in any kind of test. What you propose can absolutely be done. There is no technical issue with it. I see your testing as being similar to testing to see if eggs can be hard boiled. Of course they can! Just like "can you draw from batteries and put energy back onto the grid?" Of course you can!
The question is a statistical question. The solution would be to model the average expected electric vehicles in this scheme then do simulations based on grid needs verses fleets of willing cars out there. For this you want a math tool.
Keith Cress
kcress -
I was referring to something like MathCad or Mathworks.
I don't see how one car set up to do this would help in any kind of test. What you propose can absolutely be done. There is no technical issue with it. I see your testing as being similar to testing to see if eggs can be hard boiled. Of course they can! Just like "can you draw from batteries and put energy back onto the grid?" Of course you can!
The question is a statistical question. The solution would be to model the average expected electric vehicles in this scheme then do simulations based on grid needs verses fleets of willing cars out there. For this you want a math tool.
Keith Cress
kcress -
Another question for you, Keith. What are the typical losses associated with charging and then discharging a battery for energy storage. Are we going to pay a dollar in losses to make a dime on energy storage?
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
Bill
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"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
- Thread starter
- #32
Keith,
It's not a testing kind of lab. It's for demonstration. We have many people coming through from FERC people to members of congress. We use these demonstrations as a means to promote policy change etc. at many different levels.
P.S. I was refering to shareholder owned utilities not municiple utilities, but all that is really kind of off topic. I didn't mean to upset anyone. Charging and discharging in small amounts appeared to have little effect on AC Propulsions batteries. Although they did not do long term testing, suprisingly their batteries actually increased in capacity after running their tests. I believe it is full drains and recharges that severly affect battery life. Lead acid batteries are more prone to this, but probably won't be used when and if these vehicles go into production. Constant topping off of the batteries may even extend battery life when contrasted with batteries that are nearly completely drained and then recharged at the end of the day. Of course all that will depend on the type of battery technology that ends up being used.
It's not a testing kind of lab. It's for demonstration. We have many people coming through from FERC people to members of congress. We use these demonstrations as a means to promote policy change etc. at many different levels.
P.S. I was refering to shareholder owned utilities not municiple utilities, but all that is really kind of off topic. I didn't mean to upset anyone. Charging and discharging in small amounts appeared to have little effect on AC Propulsions batteries. Although they did not do long term testing, suprisingly their batteries actually increased in capacity after running their tests. I believe it is full drains and recharges that severly affect battery life. Lead acid batteries are more prone to this, but probably won't be used when and if these vehicles go into production. Constant topping off of the batteries may even extend battery life when contrasted with batteries that are nearly completely drained and then recharged at the end of the day. Of course all that will depend on the type of battery technology that ends up being used.
This is just what the utility industry needs..... Make the system even more complicated so we have to hire more business people and lawyers to get their piece of the pie. I come to work every day in the industry and still don't know how the lights stay on. I guess it's Ohm's Law or maybe the Electricity Gods, I'm not quite sure.
I see epepito. That makes sense.
waross; Answer: Not real good.. Lead acid is about 60~65% for charging. ++ But as epepito points out, new battery chemistries are getting better at this.
++ This is a big part of why solar homes want to be grid tied so any solar generated electricity doesn't go thru a charging stage.
Keith Cress
kcress -
waross; Answer: Not real good.. Lead acid is about 60~65% for charging. ++ But as epepito points out, new battery chemistries are getting better at this.
++ This is a big part of why solar homes want to be grid tied so any solar generated electricity doesn't go thru a charging stage.
Keith Cress
kcress -
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