co-worker non claiming all hours worked 33

[shacked]

So, I work in a small structural engineering office where everyone knows everyone else. My boss owns half of the office that we work out of, which is located in a very nice area. Therefore our overhead is fairly high, which explains why my boss is always pushing us to "Get it out" or complaining that we didn't make any money on this or that job.

To make matters worse, one of the other engineers does not clock all the hours that he works. Since we are paid hourly this makes me look like an asshat, because I clock all my hours therefore it takes longer for me to complete a project. Of course this other guy is the bosses golden boy, but I think he is just kissing ass by not logging all his hours.

He told me the other day that sometimes when he is working on a project and the phone starts ringing off the hook, and he gets tied up for an hour or two answering questions from contractors, architects... that he doesn't feel that he should clock those hours on the project that he is working on. Of course he shouldn't, log the hours under general office time.

Any suggestions as to how I should handle this?
Oh, not sure if the boss knows this, but I am pretty damn sure it is obvious.

 

[corus]

I'm not sure what the problem is as the profit the company makes will be the difference between what salaries are paid out and what income comes in. You can book your hours to 'staring out the window' for all it matters. What would make a difference is if the colleague worked late at night/weekends and neither booked their time to the project or asked for over-time payment. Best way to compete with that is to take in a brief case and take home some papers to work on, or take home a laptop. Proudly announce to everyone in the morning how late you were working last night. Make sure everyone knows or else you'll be wasting your time. In the afternoon you'll have the perfect excuse for that little nap while your colleague answers the bleedin phone.

corus

 

[casseopeia]

shacked,

The negative attitude, anger and resentment comes through for me, too. Here are the clues, ‘asshat...golden boy...kissing ass...a-hole...kiss-ass...’

The (rhetorical) question I have is it your boss making this comparison, or just you?

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[EQguys]

I second Cass. Sounds like sour grapes to me !! Lose the attitude and in the long run you will be rewarded.

"Does the man make the journey or does the journey make the man" - Mark Twain

 

[KENAT]

DWHA kind of beat me to it. Ask the boss for clarification on how to book time answering phone calls etc, preferably in a way that the other guy also gets the clarification.

Oh as to what kind of kiss ass would work for free, well me. Although, I've usually turned it to my benefit one way or another so maybe it wasn't for free in the long term.

Are you sure this guy is doing it 'for free' or is he getting some kind of reward, even if it's just being in the good graces of your manager?

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[GMcD]

One of the fundamental issues that needs to be clarified is: are the fees for the projects based on fixed fees or hourly (maybe to an upset maximum)? There's a big difference in how one looks at this situation depending on the answer. Typically in the building design industry, most arrangements with the Architect or Owner are fixed fees. So typically in that world, it is very common for management to try to squeeze all the "free" hours out of staff as possible to meet the fixed fee limit, and insure some miniscule profit. I've found it to be quite common in this industry to work 45-50 hours and only book 40 to the timesheet since the fees are never enough to cover the effort and scope creep.

That's another whole ethical discussion about doing fixed fee work for nebulous scope of work and then trying to cut back service to preserve fees.

 

[monkeydog]

Sounds like you are getting paid overtime, which is something a lot of salaried folks get.

If your not paid the overtime, what's the difference?

Some outfits use historical charging for the basis of future jobs. So, not charging the hours you work, could end-up with under-bidding future work, and losing money on the job.

 

[swivel63]

well, maybe the guy screwed up or isn't as efficient as you? if given the same job, who finishes it first? maybe he's not charging because he's learning stuff he should already know?

 

[trey25624]

sounds like you, your boss, and your coworker each are in the wrong.

Boss - Sounds like he probably isn't writing good proposals, or is promising work for less than he could get. he may be held to what the client is willing to pay, but if he is doing work for free that will catch up to him.

Your coworker - so if he isn't charing the job number, what is he charging? General time? Your boss should see that and $hit a brick. If he is charging less than 8 hours then that is 1. illegal, 2. stupid

You - Don't worry about what your coworker is doing or your boss. you can't control it. do your work, charge the jobs. and when you are talking to contractors that should be billable under construction administration. if your boss isn't telling you to bill that stuff he is losing money. everything you do should be billable.

 

[Neubaten]

"I don't know of any salaried engineers getting working 40 hour weeks and calling it good."


Here you have just meet one 9 to 5er. Europe is a nice place to live.

I'm always astonished at the incredible amount of time you guys spend at work. I understand ocasionally you need to be 14 h at the office, but constantly seems a little too much for me.

About OP, what's the problem if you counter attack with his same weapons and charge even less without telling anyone?

 

[IRstuff]

Why does he have to have charged anything? We have a bucket called "uncompensated overtime" wherein we record hours that are never billed. Of course, almost no one does that either.

Frankly, that's his choice, and all I see is that your attitude coming through loud and clear.

From a pure business perspective, your boss does have a problem, because if the coworker is not billing a large percentage of the overtime, and if there needs to be actual and billable overtime, your coworker will not be able to do the billable overtime and the unbilled overtime. Of course, your boss may already see that, if he's any good at all at his job, and is simply taking in the free ride he's getting from the coworker.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Ron]

Shacked...your attitude shows through clearly. Maybe that's situational and temporary, but it does come through.

I continue to be surprised in this forum that many engineers, who are supposed to view themselves as professionals not "trained tradesmen", feel that they should only work a prescribed number of hours and are then either entitled to overtime pay or just shouldn't be asked to put in extra time to further their training, their experience, and the company for which they work.

As professionals, you shouldn't have to be asked to work extra time. The work is out there to get done, so do it. If it takes you 50 hours to get your work done then so be it.

I know this is going to sound like one of those stories where I walked 5 miles to and from school in blinding snow, uphill both ways (not much blinding snow in Florida...not many hills either!), but I've been a salaried engineer since the day I graduated college. I have never been paid overtime (though in each job, I've been compensated at the high end of my colleagues, generally because I proved my worth), have never been asked to routinely put in overtime, but have always done so. In my opinion (and I'm sure I'll get lots of disagreement with this), professionals should not be paid overtime. That is reserved for non-professionals and if that's what you want to be, then go ahead. I choose another route.

A young attorney, just out of school and licensed to practice, will be expected (by peer pressure and management) to bill somewhere between 2500 and 3000 hours in their first couple of years of practice. That's between 50 and 60 billable hours a week. Fortunately, almost all that they do is billable, but they still have 5 to 10 hours per week of non-billable time...so they work 60 to 70 hours per week. Those willing to do so end up as partners and reap the rewards of such. Those unwilling to do so shuffle off to other firms looking for greener pastures and find the same thing, or they go to corporate law and get paid like other corporate people.

Engineers can be the same. More often though, engineers are less willing to work that way and end up working for salaries that progress slowly or not at all.

Who knows, maybe your colleague has visions of working his way toward ownership. He's putting himself in a better position for that than you are. He's making personal sacrifices that you view as an affront to your sensibilities and work ethic. Why not compete with him head on and see where you go with that? Who knows, you might get recognized more for that than griping about him.

Good luck. If your boss doesn't recognize your contribution, then you have only two choices....make a change that he will notice or make a change and work somewhere else.

 

[CFSEng]

Ron,
Please don't compare engineers to lawyers, while both may be classed as professional, how many engineers do you know that can bill $200+ an hour for their time. Also note the hard working lawyer bills 60 hours per week (key word bills) so that the firm collects for 60 hours of time. An engineer working on a fixed fee project works 60 hours but only records 40 hours to make it look more profitable. So how does the boss know you are short billing to 'help profits' or just not as fast at designing as you should be?
Don't get me wrong, as I was working may way up I often didn't record all my hours or would shift some hours around to make jobs look better, but since I don't work for any of those firms anymore, it didn't really gain me anything, it just made the owner more money. Of course I like you have always been salary, I'm surprised to read an engineer is actually paid hourly

 

[MechEng2005]

It seems like you know your options, and you are in a better position to know the outcomes than any of us. If you don't like your options or the expected results, that's too bad. However, none of us can do anything about that. Unless of course one of the posters here would like to call your boss or co-worker and give them a stern talking to...

MechEng2005

 

[EddyC]

shacked,

Your boss is most likely aware of what your coworker is doing and is playing the two of you off against each other to get more "free" work out of you both. Its a tactic that some employers utilize. Its probably best to keep your mouth shut, as most people resent being "outed".

Best of Luck.

 

[Ron]

CFSeng....your comment reminds me of the old joke about lawyers...if you added up their billable time, they'd all be over a hundred years old.

Engineers can charge what they show they are worth in the marketplace. My rate is and has been above $200 per hour for many years. My associates are billed out from $160 to $200 per hour, depending on the project and their experience. All are licensed professional engineers with experience.

In general, we as engineers do not charge enough for our services. Last weekend I had an air conditioner problem at my house. I called the service I normally use and they sent an AC Technician out. He did an excellent job of diagnosis and repair, and got us back online within an hour in sweltering weather. His hourly charge was $125 per hour. It was worth it.

I know of many engineering firms that charge from $75 to $100 for their LICENSED engineers! That's absurd. You can't get your car repaired, your AC fixed, or your drains unplugged for that rate anymore, and those guys don't have 4 or 5 years of college, 3 or 4 years of internship, monstrous potential liability, and licensing laws that will skin them alive if they screw up. WHY, WHY, WHY do we value our services so lowly?? I JUST DON'T GET IT!

Raise your rates...you won't lose clients. I know. I've done it, fearing that I'd never get another client or job. That didn't happen to me and it won't happen to any competent engineer who does a good job.

 

[CFSEng]

Ron... I guess there are many unknowns to this discussion... I don't know where you are located or even what you do as engineer and in the end it's really irrelevant. I agree with you a hunderd and ten percent about the raise your rate comment, at our peak we were charging $180 for principals and $150 for PEs. It also has always amazed me at how little engineers charge for their time. However in todays market we are trying to get $125 for engineering and losing bids left and right to firms at half our fee.

I don't know that I agree on your comment about raising rates, we are about out of work and most likely will be closing our doors because we just can't do work as cheap as our competitors. I realize you can infer we must be bad engineers or have high overhead... or maybe just bad clients... or maybe we need more employees willing to work for free... whatever the reason don't assume because you could do it someone else can also. All firms are not the same. And by the way, who fixes your car, my mechanic charges $50 an hour.

I really don't mean to hijack this thread since billing rates and how a business is run was not part of the OPs questions. I guess I feel that an employee working for me needs to record all hours so I can properly manage a job and determine if I am bidding properly. But as stated earlier I understand why the employee would not record all hours as I did the same thing in my past.

It really comes down to does the OP want to make a career at this place or not. Either work hard and do your best there or go somewhere else.

 

[swivel63]

i completely agree with Ron.

 

[JAE]

Ron, I sure do agree with you but as long as there are engineers working out of their house at $60/hour.....what do you do?

 

[IRstuff]

Aerospace companies routinely bill at about $200/hr for engineers.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Ron]

JAE...yeah, that's a problem...they are the problem. If they would charge a reasonable rate, they'd still get work and make a lot more money and not screw up the profession with their devaluation of all of our services. We have to continue to educate our clients that selection should be qualifications based, not fee based.

One of the worst things that ever happened to our profession was when the Supreme Court decided that we had to remove the bidding prohibition from our Code of Ethics.


CFSeng...we are in complete agreement. Yes, sometimes you have to compromise your rates to get work in this environment. I agree that you have to account for every hour you can legitimately charge, from every employee. I know it's tough, but it will improve. As for my work type and location, I practice in the southeast US, mostly Florida. My practice is primarily structural and construction forensics.

Shacked...my apologies for hijacking your thread. Your comments got some good discussion going from all around. Right now you're probably feeling a little "ass-kicked"...turn it around and kick ass. Show your value,be confident in your contribution....if you feel you're doing the right thing, make the other guy follow your lead.