Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings 9

[code1]

An interesting incident happened to me- in talking to my younger, new colleague who was obviously eager to please, I mentioned the previous area of work she was in (similar industry).

Was I suprised when she launched into it and... pulled out the drawings of the design to show me highlighting the "pride and joy" of the ex-company's equipment. And the whole set of her ex-company's drawings is stored in her (my) company desk-top computer.

I only started the conversation as a way to build rapport and had no interest in the her ex-company's designs. I supervise her at work.

Has this ever happened to you. What is a good way to tackle this? Launch into Ethics 101? My curreny company has a lot of propriety information and designs as well, and I dread a repeat of this between her and another competitor in the future...

 

[BJC]

"If you had an "employment" contract, chances are that you signed an agreement....."
That wasn't an agreement at all, just something you had to do or not work. Such "agreements" offer you nothing and put all the cards in the employers hand. You get the joker. Unions typically have agreements and contracts,. Engineers have something more like an indentured servants contract. Your not even supposed to die without their approval.

 

[Ashereng]

You signed a document that you do not believe in, and then disregard it because you do not believe in it, and justify it base on "something you had to do or not work" ...

Interesting.

We do disagree on a lot of points.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[monkeydog]

Ashereng,
A star for Integrity.

 

[BJC]

"Integrity" is (or should be ) a two way street. Unfortunately many times it's not. When dealing with some corporations and some indivuals it's a loose -loose game. I have never broken an agreement, just pointing out that contracts that are didtated not negoiated don't mean a lot.

 

[DarthSoilsGuy]

bjc,

i think people here are thinking about people they work or have worked with who have abused the system and are taking it out on you. that you check and post on this forum should say that you consider this issue and have not so obviously disregarded it. negotiation is a two-way process. (insert political joke)

 

[monkeydog]

Something is either right or wrong.
Signing a document with no intention of upholding your side is wrong. Forcing someone to sign a document is wrong. This is not math, where to wrongs make a right.

 

[GrimesFrank]

Who says engineers don't argue semantics?

Taking personal info of your employer's clients to give to your new employer is a far cry from having a tangible piece of media documenting your 'proprietary thoughts'.

If this were the case what is wrong with me carrying out my client list in my head and cherry pick them for my new empoyer?
Reason: You are directly causing 'harm' to one party to benefit the other. I walk out with how to design pump seals.....whether I have a drawing or not is immaterial my knowledge is coming with me.

I think we have sensitive people on both sides ahere as some posters have likely seen their 'proprietary thoughts' move on to another company without them or have taken those ideas and have benefited because of them.....I'd be bitter too.

Today is gone. Today was fun.
Tomorrow is another one.
Every day, from here to there,
funny things are everywhere.

 

[kchayfie]

If I ever left this company, the only things I have worth taking with me are 1) a legend of P&ID symbols and 2) a calculation spreadsheet containing most of the equations / formulae used in hydraulic calculations.

The information in the first can easily be located in the British Standard document but our legend has been reorganinsed into a more user friendly format and its easier to use as a reference. The equations used in the second are all available in textbooks but the spreadsheet has labelled cells for all the input values and then a cell containing the formula to feed those inputs into the equation and taking a copy with me would save me the time in re-writing the spreadsheet and would reduce the chance of making a mistake in re-entering the formulae.

So far I have been very much on the fence in this debate. I'm interested to know how the "taking anything with you is wrong" side of the argument would view keeping a copy of the above documents.

This is one of those occasions where a good argument could change someone's mind!

 

[monkeydog]

Let's assume you work for E-Tips Valve Company. Your boss tells you that when you design valves, use the "E-Tips Valve spreadsheet" for sizing, flow, etc. All E-Tips valves are designed using that spreadsheet. Over the period of time you work there, you create your own generic spreadsheet that you use for flow and pressure drop. You use your own spreadsheet to do your work, but do pass final design thru the "E-Tips Valve spreadsheet" per your boss's request. The "E-Tips Valve spreadsheet" put's out a very nice print-out. Your boss is very protective of the "E-Tips Valve spreadsheet" and only shows his customers the input/output of his precious spreadsheet, as he considers it proprietary.

After a few years, you figure out the old coot is paranoid and it is time for you to move on. And, you see no technical differences between the generic spreadsheet you created, and the "E-Tips Valve spreadsheet".

As I see it, the generic spreadsheet for flow and pressure drop calculations that you came up with is yours to take with you. But the "E-Tips Valve spreadsheet" is off limits.

 

[Ashereng]

kchayfie,

Like you said, all of that information is available from public sources. What is not available, is the particular form and combination of that data - which, like you said, is worth something to you otherwise, you wouldn't take it.

Yes, taking a little thing here, another "public" thing there, from your employer, is no big deal. And yes, when discovered, no one is going to sue you, get upset or anything. That isn't the point. This is an ethics forum, and the question is one of ethics. Is it ethical?

Put it another way. How do you explain your actions to your 8 year old child that it is okay to take something that doesn't belong to you? Especially, when you have "promised" (which in essence is what a contract is) you wouldn't do it?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[code1]

kchayfie (Chemical)'s P&ID should not be taken as it has bee developed with the Company's resources (either by himself and/or others). If kchayfie had developed the P&ID himself then he will not need the physical copy as it will all be in his head and kchayfie can always reproduce it with the help of the BS. If the spreadsheet is brought to another company and makes the other company more competitive then it is wrong. You just can't unrightly give it a productivity tool this way. SOmetimes a company just has to learn the hard and expensive way.

monkeydog (Aerospace) is spot on about E-Tips Valve Company spreadsheet (propriety) and the generic spreadsheet (developed by oneself for oneself's use and selfchecks).

 

[HgTX]

Someone brought up the client list.

I know we've debated the ethics of taking a contact list in this forum before, but I could use another round.

(I'm going to put this in a first-person format for ease of discussion, but in real life I am the client; I don't have clients.)

Once the timeframe of a noncompete agreement has run out, what's the problem with contacting old clients? Am I to stay away from these people for all eternity just because I used to work with them at a previous job? If so, what's the point of having an expiration date on the noncompete?

And how do I distinguish contacts that are "mine" vs. my employer's? There are people that I have contact with at conferences, at committees, etc.; am I truly under obligation to purge my cell phone address book of any and all professional contacts because I got them all, one way or another, under the auspices of work-related or at least employer-funded travel? I need to dump all the phone numbers and collect all the business cards anew the next time I see those same people at the same conferences the following year?

Contact list should be mine. How to use it, on the other hand, should be governed by ethics.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[BJC]

thread784-191291 is a good example of an "agreement" companies have with employees.
Usually all one way.

 

[KENAT]

Separate but related issue.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19815298/

If you worked for a Defence Contractor, or if you're an inventor type who has worked on ideas in private be careful!

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[IRstuff]

Why? Not obvious that this guy was a defense contractor or an inventor.

If you, a defense contractor or inventor, take something that's ITAR controlled out of the US, you've got a different problem altogether, although, the outcome might be somewhat similar. At least, with simple treason, you'd still get to hire a lawyer.

TTFN

FAQ731-376