Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings 9

[code1]

An interesting incident happened to me- in talking to my younger, new colleague who was obviously eager to please, I mentioned the previous area of work she was in (similar industry).

Was I suprised when she launched into it and... pulled out the drawings of the design to show me highlighting the "pride and joy" of the ex-company's equipment. And the whole set of her ex-company's drawings is stored in her (my) company desk-top computer.

I only started the conversation as a way to build rapport and had no interest in the her ex-company's designs. I supervise her at work.

Has this ever happened to you. What is a good way to tackle this? Launch into Ethics 101? My curreny company has a lot of propriety information and designs as well, and I dread a repeat of this between her and another competitor in the future...

 

[sms]

Launch into ethics 101. Believe it or not, a lot of people have not received that education, and she may not understand that what she was doing is wrong. She needs you to help her understand that, especially as her supervisor.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades! B-)

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

 

[Senselessticker]

I once had concerns about the same thing. Nowadays, I have no problems calling a buddy somewhere and asking if he'll send me the cad file that had a particular detail on it. Sometimes this person is a colleage, sometimes a vendor, and somtimes a client. So long as I have a good working relatioship with that person and there are not any conflict of interests involved, there never seems to be a problem.

Now, there's a big difference in "sharing" common and standard details, and "sharing" drawings that contain, say, the design for the latest and greatest spy plane, satelite, automobile, tech gadget, etc... where disclosure of such information could jepordize competitive advantage of the originating company and possible result in someone having civil and/or criminal charges brought upon him/her.

But if the drawings contain information that is not really "new" in nature, then I wouldn't sweat over it. For example: A design for an office building or industrial facility I would consider nothing special and would have no problem with the drawings getting shared around (assuming these documents are not protected from being distributed of course). But if someone brough over the design for say, a nuclear powered automobile, then I think whoever is sharing this info will find themself in legal trouble soon enough.

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

There's a big difference between asking for drawings, and just taking them. There's also a similarly big difference to having them for your own edification/reminder, and to showing them off to others.

Like Senselesssticker I have asked for and have usually been given drawing details. Sometimes with the proviso that they not be used to assist a direct competitor, sometimes not.

The one and only time I switched jobs to go to a competitor, my new boss asked if I had brought drawings from the previous company. I told him I had not, and he proceeded to tell me that had I said yes I would have been fired on the spot. He knew the competiton well enough to know they would never allow any of their drawings to be taken.

code1 ... You should clarify with your new colleague whether permission was given. It should also be pointed out to her that the taking of drawings (without permission) from your company will not be tolerated.

Any company worth their salt should be able to obtain enough details from their competitors products without needing drawings. The drawings would just make it easier.

 

[JStephen]

I'd go the ethics 101 route.

There are industries that really don't have that many secrets, and there may not be anything wrong with her having the drawings. But it's worth discussing.

 

[IRstuff]

One man's public domain is another's closely guarded secret. We have this sort of thing in military systems all the time. Certain items are public domain, unless they're associated with some classified program.

I think that for the sake of your own company, you need to do due diligence to ensure that whatever you are seeing is with the approval and consent of the intellectual property owner, and then allow for some degree of slipage.

I'm sure that when Google hires another person from Microsoft, they'll do more scrutiny to ensure that they avoid getting sued again.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Ashereng]

Yes. Start the Ethics 101. While you are at it, start the Contract Law 101 also.

Taking drawings from a previous employer is usually also breaking some terms of most employment contracts. I know that it certainly violated every contract I have signed.

As I have replied elsewhere in Eng-Tips, taking drawings, regardless of how "common knowledge" or "non-spy plane" it is, is wrong. In fact, I am not sure if I want the plans to my building being distributed all over the city. Do I really want everyon to know where the safe is? or the server room? or the executive dining room?

Now, for the calling up an old boss and "asking" for a drawing. That is different. If I ask, and he gives it to me, I am in the free and clear. That, is totally acceptable - and from my experience, very common.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[civilperson]

Drawings of building are public knowledge when submitted to local building authorities for building permits.

 

[Ashereng]

Yes. That is true.

Drawings that are not submitted, are not in the public domain. This includes floor usage plans (non-structural), alternative configurations (eventually not built), etc.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[SylvestreW]

Ethics 101 as starters, then monitor her work closely. If someone doesn't "get it", teaching it to them is challenging.

 

[atlas06]

In my industry (HVAC), we typically would not take plans of anything (especially government projects - not even a hard copy on those), but common detail sheets, control diagrams/sequence of operation are common among engineers moving from one company to another. This is part of the engineer's database (his portfolio).

The other day, a collegue approaches me with "do you happen to have a 2-pipe system piping diagram?" sure, here it is (in CAD).

Without the engineer's portfolios, the owners will lose substantial databases from their workers, and they will be paying with lots of engineering hours in re-designing things over and over (all secrets put aside of course).

And we engineers don't have to work UNPAID overtime to redesign things again for the boss, just because of his secrecy policies.

 

[Ashereng]

I guess we can agree to disagree. You hold firm in your convictions and I hold firm to mine.

I guess in the end, you will let your conscience guide you.

What is wrong, is only wrong, if you believe it is wrong.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[IRstuff]

"What is wrong, is only wrong, if you believe it is wrong"

Oddly, the government and police often have a different perspective

But, I'll have to try that strategy the next time I get pulled over for speeding. ;-)

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[KENAT]

I wonder if the Enron guys tried that in their defense.

I think part of the problem here is that it’s not just an isolated drawing or part of a drawing but a whole pack. Essentially all (or at least most) of the manufacturing information is there.

I think there needs to be some sort of conversation. Maybe she had permission to have the drawings but showing them to you, a potential competitor, is a lack of judgment if nothing else.

I have had a more senior colleague (not exactly my boss but sort of my mentor) pull out a pack of drawings from a previous employer, as I recall I didn’t’ say anything.

 

[monkeydog]

If nothing is said or done, don't be suprised if after a few years she move on to your competitor. Guess what drawings she will have in tow?

Are you OK with that?

 

[code1]

No- I do not think anyone will be okay with that. Especially if the competitor has detailed engineering drawings with all the materials and tolerences spec out.

And the spreadsheet calculations (not commonly found in articles, handbooks etc) to go with it which gives the company a competitive edge.

But engineering knowledge that is easily accessible, maybe it is all right, if all it takes another company 10 or 100 hours to put together, draw or re-design.

Regards

 

[Ashereng]

code1,

I am a bit confused by your answers. For example:

But engineering knowledge that is easily accessible, maybe it is all right, if all it takes another company 10 or 100 hours to put together, draw or re-design.

So, it's okay if it only takes another company 10 or 100 hours? Gee, thanks. Please send over all the stuff that it took you less than 10 hours to come up with.


But, if the shoe's on the other foot:

If nothing is said or done, don't be suprised if after a few years she move on to your competitor. Guess what drawings she will have in tow?

Are you OK with that?

No- I do not think anyone will be okay with that. Especially if the competitor has detailed engineering drawings with all the materials and tolerences spec out.

You were rather quick to say no, you didn't think anyone will be okay with that.

What if what she took only requires another company less than 100 hours?

What about 100.5 hours? Or is that not alright?





"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[code1]

Dear Ashereng,

Let me explain in greater detail.

Ideally, I never expect for one company's property to end up in Company No. 2 just because an employee left the first and joined No. 2.

Personally, I have never disclosed information of a previous employer's when I went on to another job. I have no right taking away any competitive advantages/ know-how they spent resources on. Like you say, I let conscience and integrity guide me. I am always grateful for the education and experience I have received in my employment, and I always part with the management saying: "The door is always open to you". The reality is not everyone will follow my example, hence my being troubled at being shown the information by my colleague.

Now, for the statement 10 or 100 hours, what is meant is: should information taken away by an ex-employee, hopefully is it something that can be relatively easily found in the public domain, be it in engineering journals, handbooks and the like (as measured by the low man hours of 10 or 100 hours- but this is just a figure fr illustrative purposes). Losing propriety information- hopefully never.

In my previous job, the company had lost significant business in parts of Asia when their equipment was (1) reverse engineered and copied, or (2) joint ventures that failed but knowlegde transferred. Now they are: (1) called in for only important and high profile jobs (2) the service engineer comes across copy-cat tools on location. I also had a colleague that the supervisor spend a lot of effort grooming but the crossed over to the other side for more money and a bigger job title, and brought along 3 valuable colleagues with him. Always unfortunate but always true in real life.

Regards

 

[monkeydog]

Code1,
I think I understand your position.
So long as your employee only takes jobs that cost you about $20,000 or less (100 hours or less), and was not propriety information, it is OK to take those documents, be it drawings, analysis specific to your project, research data for your project, it is OK?

 

[code1]

monkeydog,

It is never OK for employee to take stuff when they leave, unless with the express approval of management. I hope that this clears up any doubts about my stand on this, period.

However, in reality, that is never 100% possible, and we can only the information taken is of insignificant value to the company.

My company recognise this issue and is currently taking steps to ensure that information that should stay in my company stays there. In reality it is never easy.

Regards.