Comments about age discrimination 13

[2dye4]

Some comments in PFFs thread brought up age discrimination.

It occurs to me that older engineers are going to have to make due working
for contract agencies and freelance due to companies not wanting the over 50 crowd.

Apart from some high need areas where exceptions will be made is it going to be
hard on the older guys even if they are tech current and what advise do you give.

Thanks

 

[zdas04]

I'll be 60 next summer. I left the corporate world at the first of the month following my 50th birthday.

Since then I've been consulting and spend a lot of time with Engineers who are still working for producers. In general mostly I see younger Engineers, but several of my contemporaries have reported above-normal raises and informal incentives to stay and stay and stay. Some clever managers are seeing that if they can delay the old guys leaving, they'll have a better set of options for the mid-career guys and won't end up with as many 2-year guys in supervisory positions. It is far from universal, but the one-off discussions are encouraging. Everyone would rather have a policy than have to make a decision, but I've seen individual managers in more than a few companies willing to make these sort of decisions in the face of HR opposition. It may not be as quite as bleak for old guys as we had anticipated.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[berkshire]

I am now retired,
But at age 65 when I was due for retirement ,I was asked by my manager to stay on and train some younger guys in the company.
Then at age 67 got laid off, together with the people I trained, because of lack of work, following mr Obamas election.
So I think David has it right, if you have a skill set that is in need, you will not have a problem, as long as the work is out there to support that need.
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[moltenmetal]

It's amazing what companies say or think their problems are, and what they really are. There is constant complaint about a "skills shortage" in engineering, whereas what is meant is that there is a shortage of candidates in the 5-15 year post graduation experience band. These "shortages", where they exist, result from an unwillingness of firms to hire young people and train them, and then pay them enough to get a return on their training investment. By the sound of previous posts to this thread, a contributing factor is the desire on the part of the same firms to trim the top end of the salary band by laying off the very people who COULD train the young folks, thereby ensuring that these firms fulfill their own prophesy.

Short sighted thinking like this is fortunately self-correcting in the marketplace- but only over the long term.

Unfortunately, these businesses scream rather loudly and effectively to all levels of government, who are only too happy to try to help them "fix" their imagined shortages via immigration and increased engineering program enrollment. They're even lobbying to push 4 yr engineering programs to five years in an effort to better match the perceived needs of the employers, a concept which the universities love of course. It won't work, because a kid with 5 years of school versus 4 is still viewed as unqualified for these 5-15 yr experience "sweet spot" jobs that every employer seems to be recruiting for.

 

[msquared48]

So, other than the wage issue, which is really aa bunch of BS in my opinion when productivity is factored in, why won't firms hire over 50? I'm 64 and will be on Midicare next year and any employer would not have to pay medical on me. SS, yes.

What am I missing here?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[KENAT]

Well, some firms won't hire people near to retirement because they 'won't be around long enough' to make it worth while.

Which is silly, because expecting there to be a significant chance of anyone being around more than a few years is unrealistic.

Some places it is the healthcare aspect apparently, a few oldies can really drain the pool. Then again so can younger folks with pre existing conditions or for that matter a lot of breeding stock.

In fairness some folks near retirement have a crummy attitude, you know 'go on and fire me makes no difference to me' etc. However, one suspects this is often in response to behavior of the employer/manager. Plus some younger folk aint any better.

However, in my experience some of the best people I've worked with have been in the last few years of their career and have so much knowledge to share etc. that at least if they were employed properly most of them would be worth any of the perceived disadvantages.

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[Debaser]

In the UK, there is no set retirement age (although the state pension currently kicks in at 68 - having increased from 65). Frankly, as a 40 year old I can see that in 28 years time that figure will have increased again, probably to 70, but possibly with a sliding scale (i.e. retire at 70 get 100% of the state pension, retire at 75 and get 110%, or similar).

I suspect it will take some time yet for the closure of all final salary company pensions to new starters (and in some cases to existing employees) to truly sink in, especially with HR. There are still people on average salaries, with average pension pots, who think they'll be able to retire immediately they hit 68, or even sooner, and maintain their lifestyle.

I hate to say it, but I've prepared myself to be working 'til I die (which is the optimistic outcome, based on there being enough jobs available) in 30-odd years time. My only hoped for concession is that I'll have enough in my pension pot that I'll be able to kick-back and afford a 3-day week.

 

[Mr168]

In my organization, a significant problem with the elders has to do with tribal knowledge. They don't want to train/mentor the young bucks, because they would then have no consulting work to supplement their income. Or, should they be a few years short of their ideal retirement, they don't want to be replaced by someone 25 years their junior.

Oddly enough, the long-timers, while knowledgeable, have also led to significant financial concerns. While some have moved on with the times and continue to be a valuable asset, others are locked into paper-based, prehistoric methods and quality programs, not acknowledging the apparent time and cost savings of these newfangled "computers." Coincidentally enough, some of the younger members of senior management have made a note of this stubbornness and the resulting consequences ($$$$), and unsurprisingly enough, some of the 30+ year employees were terminated during a recent office relocation.

 

[msquared48]

Aware of the attitude demonstrated toward the "tribal elders" ass you call them, why would they mentor the younger ones?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[patprimmer]

I have seen both good and bad attitude on both sides of this fence.

Regards
Pat
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[msquared48]

That's true Pat.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[Mr168]

Aware of the attitude demonstrated toward the "tribal elders" ass you call them, why would they mentor the younger ones?

It's not so much an attitude as it is calling a spade a spade.

As noted, not all senior employees fall under the "tribal elder" category. Some (including those who I've had the genuine pleasure of working under/alongside over the years) have moved along with the times, are excited that they have the opportunity to train and mentor younger individuals, and are valued for their contributions by all affected parties.

Others, however, are blatantly clinging to their pensions and relying on the buddy system to get them to retirement, regardless of how the project/program/company suffers along the way.

There's hardly a fine line between the two, and the detrimental effects of the latter comes as no surprise for those unfortunate enough to witness it.

 

[TenPenny]

It is worth pointing out that in any organization, when the 'tribal elders' are fired during an office relocation, many of the remaining tribal elders see how their peers are treated, assume they will get the same, and act accordingly.

 

[cranky108]

It is also important to point out that in some industries, there are groups looking to hire retiries as auditors for that industry. Managers need to be very careful how they push older workers out the door.

It is also possible to write text books, or join standard making groups. It is still possible to influence the industry.

 

[rb1957]

there are two sides to the "Age-ist" debate ...

1) the old side ... they won't hire older people, they only hire young people.
and
2) the young side ... they only hire older people, they won't hire young people.

any healthy organisation needs a mix of both ... older people generally have experience to bring to problem solving, and a memory of what was tried and what worked; younger people generally don't know what they don't know but can bring new problem solutions to the table.

both young and old approaches have up-sides and down-sides ... you don't want to slavishly repeat your previous history, you don't want to forget your experience (it cost you a lot to get !)

 

[corus]

Debaser,
You can already have a deferred state pension which pays more if you take the money later in life. For every 5 weeks you delay taking your pension you get a 1% rise in pension, or a lump sum. Look at this site for details

https://www.gov.uk/deferring-state-pension/what-you-may-get

As to the OP: Firms in the UK are now finding they can't get the right staff, or at least staff that can read and rite propr lyk, wivowt usin txt speek, so now they tend to take on older workers as 1) they're more reliable 2) less likely to fall sick 3) better time keeping, and 4) more experienced. I've known people retire or be made redundant one day, and rehired the next day, albeit on contract. Woe betide the agency that neglects the older worker, unless of course they're hiring estate agents whose educational requirement is nil.

 

[cranky108]

corus, you forgot about the older workers are imune to most office politics, and rarely have anything to prove.

 

[MusicEngineer]

The younger guys in the industry are discriminated against too. I hate to say this, but I am sure I can do my job more efficiently than a couple of the senior engineers. A couple of them lack motivation to the point that they purposefully waste time at work. Yet, when it comes to project assignments, they get all the big jobs and we (the younger engineers) get smaller tasks or we are directed to assist the senior engineers with their design tasks. Younger engineers lack experience, but most of the time we make up for it in motivation, technological proficiency and eegerness to impress.

 

[Longinthetooth]

Not to completely disregard MusicEngineer's point of view, I am reminded of the (apocryphal)story about Neil Armstrong.He was asked what He would do if He was on the moon and Houston told him He had only 10 seconds of air left. He replied that He would think for 9 seconds- then act. Such is the way of large projects with big decisions having large consequences. Dont worry MusicEngineer, your turn on the big jobs will come...Have a great career.

Merry Christmas to all.

 

[spongebob007]

"motivation, technological proficiency and eegerness to impress. " ......and nine women and one month do not a baby make.

While these are good attributes for a young engineer, they don't come anywhere near close to making up for many years of hard won experience. Something that is helping me transition into a more senior role is the relization that as you reach the senior levels, you are paid less for what you do and more for what you know. Many employees seem to tend to fall into the trap that managers do when it comes to engineers- the idea that if you aren't "producing" something physical, you aren't working. At the higher levels, there is a lot of decision making going on, and these decisions can be very complex in nature and require a lot of knowledge, contemplation, and fact gathering, and sometimes the confidence and courage to make and stand behind a decision that can have millions of dollars of ramifications. Even something that may seem as trivial as writing an email may take me an hour, especially if I am writing to senior management or a customer. I read and reread what I wrote to make sure that it makes sense, clearly explains what I want to say, and doesn't say anything that I don't want to say. I also spend a lot of time reading through specifications.

My background is in structural dynamics with a heavy emphasis on FEA. Lately my role is less of an analyst and more of a team leader. The young guys get to do all the fun work while I manage the technical aspect of the project and drive the design. I also provide guidance on best practices for certain modeling tasks. I am also the face of the company in front of our customer-something the young guys don't get to see or be part of. This can be a very stressful thing when projects aren't going the way the customer expects.

There is no shortcut to experience.


Also, if you talk to some of these older guys who seem to be unmotivated and wasting time, they will tell you of a time in their lives when they gave 150% of themselves to an employer until the time they realized that for their efforts, the employer gave them exactly 0% in return. I'm no gray hair, but I have been at this for 19 years now and I am much more jaded an cynical than the 23 year old idealist I was way back when.