Company "purchased" Certifications 5

[apiguy]

Please advise:
My company insisted that I take professional level certifications at their expense. Now that I have passed the examinations, they are trying to force me into un-ethical behavior by issuing certifications to un-qualified persons in our organization. If I choose to leave the company, am I legally responsible for re-imbursement of the expenses pertaining to the classes ?

The APIGUY....

 

[aspearin1]

Don't leave the company. If you are the one issuing the certification, then you are the one in charge of how that certification is distributed. You had to pass a test, so then should anyone esle as well. So get a copy of the certification test, (I'm sure old versions are public record). If they don't pass, they are not certified. If they do pass, then most likely, they are qualified. If ethics are in question, then perhaps you should have a third independent party keep hold of the answer key. Or better yet, a punched chad, or computer scanning of a bubble sheet. If they fire you for not simply giving away this certification, then you should be free of liability for paying for your class. Most companies only require reimbursement for voluntary leave. Though it's not fun having to explain being fired to a future employer, ethics should come above all else. Especially when people's safety may be at risk.

aspearin1

 

[sc]

Let the boss know that you have an issue with what they want. Then let him know what their options are, either let you do your job in an ethical manner or sack you. Document this as a diary note or put it in writing to them or better still get in touch with the owner or managing director (if its not the boss). If they sack you look for a new job because you wouldn't want to work for them anyway. Then sue them for unfair dismissal.


regards
sc

 

[apiguy]

SC,
They will not fire me because they know they do not have reasonable cause. Instead they have quadrupled by work load and hassle me when everything is not done in hopes that I will quit.

The APIGUY....

 

[aspearin1]

Apiguy,
I empathize with your situation. From my military experience, I can say that they use many of the same tactics in basic training. Here's my advice. If they see they can rattle you, then they will keep on rattling you. Don't let them see you sweat. Once they see you won't back down on your position, they will begin to back down themselves. If they are indeed going out of their way to make your life miserable, then it can't last forever if you don't give them the satisfaction of showing its working. If you think about it, it takes a lot of effort to create problems for someone else. Who has time for that!? So wait it out, if you can. Take ownership of the extra responsibility. Don't make excuses. They only become fuel for the fire.
"Why isn't this done?"
"No excuse, sir/ma'am. I'm working on it."
"Well you need to work faster!"
"Yes, sir/ma'am. I will."
Even if you can't work any faster, you can at least diffuse the bombardment by your bosses by giving him absolutely nothing to argue about. Work steady until the projects are complete. Prioritize as much as possible. And above all else, keep a clear head. If you think they are playing games with you, then first and foremost, realize it's a game designed to make you quit and fail. Toughen up, and you should be OK. In the mean time, if you can spend some flex time training one of the other workers so that he or she can get certified, that should also help lighten the load. If after all this you still feel you cannot take the pressure of it, then perhaps you should look for new employment. How much money is your sanity worth?
I hope this helps. Hang in there, for engineers' sake.

aspearin1

 

[apiguy]

Just to let you know exactly what I'm up against....I was sent to take five ASNT Level III exams in three weeks which I successful passed. Now, I am being pushed to make certifications for people with no experience which I refuse to do. My main concern is since this was not voluntary training on my part and the company does benefit from this training and certification, can I be held legally responsible for reimbursement of fees and expenses. I intend to start my own training and consulting business.

The APIGUY....

 

[aspearin1]

If the training was not voluntary, I see no way you could be legally bound to pay for the training. But that's an opinion. You'd really need to talk to a lawyer to know for sure. Since you may be starting your own business based on the training given to you by your current company, this may be an issue, but the likelihood is low, unless you are providing a competing product or service. I'm not familiar with ASNT guidelines, but I imagine they are similar to other certifications. These people should need to meet the minimum requirements of education and experience necessary to even take the training and testing. Correct? Somewhere, I would think there would be an ASNT rule protecting you on this. If they meet these requirements, how is it you've determined they are not fit to take the exam? Is this a case where you would need to endorse someone in order to enroll them in training?
If you are not willing to train these employees and instead wish to offer your services to the company as an outsourced consultant, I'd be pretty upset if I were your company. But I'm not sure you'd be legally bound. Ethically, however, I wouldn't think it prudent to have the company paying for your services also pay for your training. This is a question you should ask yourself. If I were in your situation, and if I were offering my services back to my parent company as a consultant, then I'd perform some good-faith training for the company or a price break as a thank-you for giving me the skills that potentially bring me fortune. Now, this would hold true most if your training was fresh and recent, and the company has yet to see a reward from the investment they've put in you. Clearly, I've made a lot of assumptions to your situation, so I'm speaking hypothetically. There is no criticism intended in this message. I'd only caution you to keep your own ethics equally in question when you question the ethics of your company.

aspearin1

 

[apiguy]

I definitely agree.

The APIGUY....

 

[BJC]

apioguy.

If you have health problems you see a doctor. If you have a tax problems you see an accountant. What you are having now is not an engineering problem, see a lawyer. Your company has a lawyer (probably a lot of them).

 

[funnelguy]

BJC is mostly correct. You should seek out a lawyer to protect your interests, however. A company lawyer will protect the company's interests.

Those interests may or may not be the same. Good legal advice will be invaluable if you are planning on leaving your current position to start a consultancy in the same or a similar field.

Get your own lawyer. A good one with a proven track record in these types of situations.

 

[Rich2001]

APIGUY,

As a level III you are the one responsible for the training and examination of the other NDE technicians and you need to have a written procedure for such. In your written procdure you can have a Level I-T trainee, i.e passed the written test but does not have the experience to be qualified as a full level I. Once the person obtains the required experience (documented) he will automatically become a level I.

If you leave the company the y may insist that you leave all training material you received (i.e. Company Property if they paid for it).

I hope this helps, Rich

 

[RDK]

Two Questions

First Did you sigh anything agreeing to repay education costs if you leave the company?

If so then is there a time limit on how long you owe?

I would think that if you never signed anything or there is some other agreement in place (published educational leave policy, collective agreement etc.) then you couldn’t be held responsible.

Second How much are we talking about here?

Was it a few hundred $ for the training or several thousand? (We don’t need to get specific.)

If only a few hundred then it’s not really worth arguing about. The company can just deduct this from your last paycheque and you will pay more than that in fighting for it back. Consider it an education expense. (I’m not talking about the formal training cost here but the life lesson.)

If it’s several thousand then it may be worth fighting about.

Two Comments.

First: Get legal advice, especially if the amount is worth fighting over.

Second. It sounds like you really don’t want to work there anyway. Why not just quit and if necessary to pay back your education then have the company hire you to do the training. There is no better first client for a consultant than the last employer.





Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[BJC]

RDK
It's not about the money. He's being asked to do something that is illeagle, dishonest and unethical. IF he quits or is fired for refusing to do so a good lawyer can see that he dosen't loose any money.
The pennys lost over traing cost may be a pittance compared to what the future cost may be.
If he inappropiately certifies someone who causes a bridge to fall or a plane to crash ther'll be lawyers after him.
Shakespear said it best:"He who steals my purse, steals trash. But he who steals my
good name, steals all that I have,"

BJC
PE,MBA

 

[RDK]

BJC

Your comments on ethics are valid; they also ignore the original question.

The original question was “If I choose to leave the company, am I legally responsible for re-imbursement of the expenses pertaining to the classes?”

Apiguy was clear that he was aware that the issuing of unjustified certifications was unethical and he was refusing to do so. Since I agreed with him I felt no need to further comment on that aspect of the issue. My comments were directed to the question that he asked.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[BJC]

The answer is not one he or any of us can provide. He needs help and he should ask an attorney - not a bunch of engineers on an engineering forum.
My experience is once the company ask or urges you to do something illeagel or unethical- all bets are off. You cannot say I own them this small quanity of unethical behaveior because they spent X $ on my training.
If your boss sends you down in the company car to pick up a package that you know contains drugs, what do you do? Act dumb and do it? Or leave never to be seen again.
It's not about money and it is pretty much back or white. If it's his reputation thats on the line the ammount of money is not in the equation.

 

[RDK]

BJC

We appear to be in heated agreement on the ethical issue.

Yes you are right in stating that money is not an issue where ethics are concerned. To discuss money over an ethical question is like the old joke where a man asked a woman if she would sleep with him for $1,000,000. When she said yes he asked if she would sleep with him for $5.

She became indignant and said, “What do you think I am?”

The man responded, “We have established that, now we are negotiating the price.”

Although the question was asked in an ethics forum, it is not really an ethics question. There is no disagreement in any of the posts that to certify unqualified people would be unethical.

The question is regarding the obligations of APIGUY to his employer over the cost of training.

My first post advised him to see a lawyer. However it is my experience with the legal profession that they can be more concerned with winning an issue with no regard for the cost of the battle. It’s usually better to try to negotiate a solution than threaten legal action.

If the cost of fighting over something is more than the cost being fought over, it’s better to pay off the opposition and get on with your life otherwise you will only make lawyers rich. The only exceptions to this are where there is the risk of setting a precedent for future reference (in which the cost being fought over is actually more than the present cost) or if there are some other non-monetary issues at stake.

I do not see this in the present case. There is no risk of setting a precedent, as the existing employee-employer relationship will be ended. The only possible non-monetary issue is his reputation. The present employer can give negative feedback regarding his skills if the leaving is tainted by hard feelings. The ethical question is moot since APIGUY has stated that he will not certify unqualified individuals.

Only the (unknown to us) cost of the training is at issue. If it were a large amount then I’d try to negotiate an acceptable repayment plan or fight the issue. If this is a small cost better to pay it and leave on good terms. Only APIGUY can determine what is a small cost. To some $100 is significant, to others $1,000 might not be significant. The important fact is to make a rational decision based on costs and benefits and not on hurt feelings.

The repayment can be in providing training to the current employer. This would allow APIGUY to develop the courses and delivery method while working with people and in an environment that he is familiar with. The best recommendation that a new consultant can have is to list his former employer as his first client.

Notice that I said provides training. I never said provide certification to unqualified individuals. Just as it would be unethical to certify qualifications to unqualified fellow employee, it would be unethical to certify qualifications to unqualified clients.

It would not be unethical to take an unqualified individual, provide him with the training necessary to become qualified and then certify him as qualified. This is routine in industry. Some examples are workplace safety, WHMIS training etc.





Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[profengmen]

Sound like BJC is the only one with the correct answer. It's a legal question, unless you guys have a law degree, don't dispense advice other than "see a lawyer".

That's it... period.

 

[BJC]

I don't see todays cost being the issue. To use your example ( from George Bernard Shaw) if the woman accepts she is a whore from that day forward, no matter if she does it for 10 million or 10 cents.
In many jurisdictions APIGUY could loose his license and not work as an engineer ever again. Under certain circumstances he could be sued ( not likely because engineers seldom have enough money to bother with) or prosicuted in criminal court.
Once you start sorting out which principals you will follow based on cost your not much better that the whore ( no one even yourself can make much distinction between a cheap one or a part time one etc.- it is what it is).

 

[RDK]

Profengman

I did advise him to see a lawyer. I also gave further advice to look at the costs associated with having to repay the cost of training or fighting having to repay the training costs. That is not legal advice simply good common sense.

BJC

There is no disagreement regarding the ethical issue. The ethical case of issuing certifications to unqualified people is and has always been a non-issue in this thread, because everyone, you, me, APIGUY and all other posters have agreed that to issue the certifications would be wrong.

I suggest that you re-read the thread from the beginning and you will see that there is no disagreement on the ethical issue and that the original question is on the responsibility for the re-payment of training costs.

My advice was to get a lawyer and my admitted non-legal opinion was that there would have to be some agreement to compel him to repay the training. I only see that as common sense.

My only advice on looking at the costs was in regards to determine if it was worth fighting the training cost issue. I never suggested that APIGUY compromise his ethics due to these training costs. I further gave him the advice that he could consider repayment of past training costs by providing training as a consultant. Notice I said training and not just issuing certifications to unqualified people.

Why is that a problem?




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[apiguy]

The original theme of this thread was:

My employer sent me to take the ASNT level III exams against my will. I had no desire to take these exams and would not have pursued that avenue in my career. Needless to say I passed the exams and became certified which benefited the company. Now that the work load is such that we need more technicians I am being pushed to certify everyone as a Level II NDE technician. Alas, I do feel everyone should be treated as equals and should have to put in as many hours and make the same sacrifices I had to make to become a leader in my field.

My initial employment offer contained verbage that said that the company would be responsible for training costs. I was never given a formal written contract. On the day I left for the training classes and examinations I was presented with a piece of paper that said that I would reimburse the company if I chose to leave the company.

Now that I will not comply with their requests my question was if the fire me am I liable for re-imbursement of these expenses. The total amount is close to $20,000.00 for those who have wondered.

I am currently certified as API 510,570,653, CWI and ASNT Level III MT,PT,RT and IRRSP. Finding employment is not an issue, just sticking to my morals is.



The APIGUY....