Converstions using your first language at work 17

[l3city]

Hi fellas, well here is a "situation" at work. All this is real. Recently engineer A and engineer B were assigned a project by the principal engineer which doesn't speak a second language. He said: "You guys take care of it, just come by if you have some questions". Engineers A & B speak english but as a 2nd language, fluently. One day engineer A and B where working and discussing on this project together and progressing on it, however at that moment they where speaking in their first language. Principal engineer was far away at his "open" office hearing the conversation (which he was not invited to begin with).

This seemed to kind a make the principal engineer not too happy about it(which told them to take care of the project...he was not involved in this project even though he is the boss). He said: "Keep your conversations in English." Question...is this ok to do? As we all know, English is the official language in the U.S.

Engineer A and B were progressing and working towards completion. From both sides, does this violates any rights or ethics? Are engineer A and B obligated to speak English?only at work? Is this is a company "rule/policie", is it ok?
My understanding of the situation is that the boss wants to micromanage or "control" everything. What's your opinion fellas..??

 

[BJC]

JStevphen
Been there done that. But first I ask permission from the person in charge. I apologized and explained that I could not communicate the ideals I need to without first talking to my associate.

 

[aardvarkdw]

Often times thoughts and ideas can be better (or in some cases only) expressed in a person's native language. I agree that it can be necessary for a company to have an official language and for that language to be spoken exclusively in meetings and group discussions. That being said a conversation between two individuals who share a native language other than the company accepted official language can be more productive than both of them trying to communicate in a language foreign to them. If the Principle engineer needs to be involved in the conversation, they should communicate so that all can understand, but in this case the Principle engineer was not involved. If he/she wanted to be involved, he/she should have asked rather than demanded to be included. I am certain engineers a and b would have complied.

David

 

[IRstuff]

Being the principal engineer, he has every right to ask for conversations in English, as well as working documents in English. Being the PE, he is the customer.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[epoisses]

Being the customer, does he have every right to ask for red underwear as well then?
Working documents in English, sure, but conversations between non-native English speakers no. It's like forcing a lefty to write with his right hand.
Just because the boss is linguistically handicapped (in Spanish or whatever the other language was) that does not mean he should pass on his handicap to the people that work for him, when they are having a conversation that the boss is not even involved in.

 

[SomptingGuy]

We often have meetings with German customers. Because German is not a common second language for Brits, the meetings are almost always conducted in English. The clients (or potential clients) often have loud internal discussions in German while we stand there and count our fingers. Most awkward.

Back at base we have the unusual situation of a married Chinese couple working fairly closely together to the point where they need to have work-related discussions from time to time. When they switch to their first language there's no way of telling whether their conversation is commercial, technical, personal, domestic or even subversive. And to insist that they speak in English to each other at all times would be frankly ridiculous.

 

[plasgears]

Speaking in a different language in front of others who don't understand is rude. However, I worked in the Chicago area for a long time with many foreign nationals, and they rarely spoke anything but English.

Switzerland was a unique experience. I worked a trade show in Geneva where it was common to drift from French to Swiss German to Hoch Deutsch to Italian to English not so much for need but for practice. The Swiss take pride in language skills.

In the US we should recognize that the whole other half of the hemisphere speaks Spanish (even the Brazilians), and Spanish as a second language is a viable option, whether you like it or not.

 

[sms]

Diversity and inclusivness is a big deal where I work. My boss had coniption the other day when two of my colleagues were standing in cubeville having a conversation in Spanish. I know enough Spanish to know that it was a very typical work conversation, one that drifted from work related to personal, and back again. The boss had a talk with them, welcoming them as diverse memebers of the team, but chastising them for not being inclusive in carrying on their conversation in Spanish.

Somptingguy, you used the right words. Frankly ridiculous...

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

 

[IRstuff]

One reason for sticking with English on a project in English is that translation can be tricky at best, particularly if the English requirements were nebulous to start with.

Many of our requirements change from compliant to noncompliant specifically because of the wording and grammar of the specification. To discuss such specifications in another language poses no assurance that you're even discussing the same requirement.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[SomptingGuy]

plasgears, Was that a slip or do people in the US really think/believe Brazilians speak Spanish?

 

[Ashereng]

Most of the Brazilians that I have worked with do speak Spanish, along with English and Portugese (as it is spoken in Brazil I guess).

Most of the Trinidad and Tabago people that I have worked with also usually speak the same three languages (in addition to whatever else they speak). They tried to teach me, unfortunately, they also told me I could repeat much of it to people outside of the group (I am guessing some of it is a bit "slang"?).

Typically, it is the Americans that are single language English speakers only. Although lately, this too seems to be changing.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[epoisses]

"the whole other hemisphere speaks Spanish"

Well...

Brasil -> Portugese
French Guyana -> French (and it's part of the European Union)
Surinam -> Dutch, Sranan Tongo and a whole bunch of other languages

 

[epoisses]

Guyana -> English

 

[mechgunner]

I believe there is a point where discussing project issues in a language all do not understand can lead to serious issues:

I guess the principal engineer is also a technical advisor to the project, I recently overheard two engineers making a decision that would have led to incorrect component fit, I was not part of this conversation, never the less I explained their error and they changed their plans.

The point is, they spoke my language, if the conversation had taken place in another language, one that I could not understand, I would have missed this, costing the company and the customer a great deal.

 

[MedicineEng]

Well, I have a problem:
The official language of my company is English but sometimes I still swear at my native language. Am I breaking the rules?

In a more serious tone, I don't think that it is reasonable, as someone pointed out, that before you start talking with someone to see who is around (and not participating/invited for the talk) to choose which language to communicate to. When I speak with someone, I use the language that will achieve my goal, that is, to be understood, and living in China and speaking only survival Chinese, I can tell you that one of my most used languages is "body language". If someone passes by and sees me "dancing" in front of a colleague to try to pass my message and wants to participate in the talk, then he/she can also "dance" along...

 

[electricpete]

It's an interesting question and one I think with no single right answer.

Certainly as a start, one thinks that a private conversation should not concern anyone other than the participants.

But the boss even though apparently uninterested also have some duty to oversee the project. Perhaps he pays more attention than you know. If he didn't want to keep tabs on the workings of his employees, they might as well work from home, right?

I like what JStephen said:

Personally, whereever I am, I just naturally feel like everyone ought to speak my language, regardless of whether it's at work or a bus station. I think that is human nature, particularly if you're not around other languages much; it just doesn't seem right that anyone would use any language besides your own.

It's not politically correct, but it is human nature.... particularly if you're not around other languages much (which applies to many Americans).

If I'm in a store and I hear a loud conversation in a foreign language, I feel a pang of annoyance. There is no logical reason... but I do. Somehow the conversation becomes a little more intrusive just because it is gibberish to the listener.

Likewise at work there is a certain amount of chatter in the background that I learn to tune out. But chatter in a foreign language has a distinctly different wavelength that catches my attention and resonates my annoyance membrane.

I'm sure that the more I am around folks speaking other languages, the more I would learn the skill of tuning this out...but until then those conversations will always be just a little more annoying to me than the run-of-the mill English-language chatter.

After all my rambling I land again on the answer that I don't think there is a single right answer. There should be communication on both sides. If the Engineers feel that their productivity will be hindered by this seemlingly articifical requirement, they should discuss it with the boss... explain their view... try to understand why it's important to him.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

 

[plasgears]

epoisses,

My apologies for not recognizing small pockets of populations that speak other than Spanish in the southern hemisphere. My reference was to the vast population that speaks Spanish.

Brazilian citizens are unique in being able to converse in Spanish while their neighbors shun Portugese.

 

[josephv]

Having employees that speak several languages is a bonus to a company. Being actively multilingual should be encouraged. Many companies will pay for their employees to learn another language. I speak mostly English at work, and am glad to be able to speak French with my customers from Quebec and Spanish with my customers from Spanish America. Although, I speak 3 languages (French, English and Spanish), this is nothing compared to some of my friends who speak 5 or more. Frankly, I don't quite understand the principal engineer's reasoning.

 

[HgTX]

I spent my early years around people who spoke many different languages, many of which I didn't speak, and I will never understand why some people find it rude when they hear another language.

Hg



Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[IRstuff]

Rudeness is in the context. Doing a good fart by yourself is not rude. Doing the same in front of others is, unless everyone is doing it.

So, there's no general rule that says speaking in a foreign language in front of others is automatically rude.

But, here's perhaps a more plausible scenario. Let's say that ALL your subcontractor's notes, measurementa, interim calculations, analyses, etc., were written in Aztec, although his final report was in English. Would you wonder if something got lost in the translation?



TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[whyun]

Should you force your employees to think in English? Also, is there a guarantee that the finished product is always better when the employee's process and communication were in English as opposed to any other language?

I agree that there is no general rule about when it is rude to speak in a foreign language. If one finds foreign language offensive or inappropriate, he/she should hire people whose first language is English.

Then again, I'm from California where, in my best estimate, 80% of the people in engineering are not native English speakers so I might have some bias.