Culture at Structural Firms 7

[Lion06]

I'm getting ready to begin a pretty intensive job search (I'm still employed, just looking for something that gives me more time at home and compensates me more appropriately). One of my biggest concerns about leaving is the potential for a culture shock at a new firm. By culture shock, I mean corporate culture. Right now I have a lot of autonomy - I (for the most part) decide what I want to work on and when as long as the work gets done. I don't have anyone breathing down my neck asking about getting stuff done. My colleagues and boss value my opinions and will always (maybe usually) acknowledge if I have a valid point when we disagree. My boss is a pretty happy, easy-going guy (though his expectations are very high) and I recognize that personal life and circumstances can easily sway the tide as to whether someone is a good or bad (read overbearing) boss.

We also have an extensive library, top notch computer systems, lots of software, continuing education, and we get to work on some pretty prestigious projects with world class architects. The down side is I don't feel properly compensated (this goes up exponentially when I think about all the "free" hours I've given working 55-60 hours/week). We haven't had raises in two years (coming up on three years very soon) and we just recently got back a 7% pay cut. What this means is that I have almost 5 years of experience (will have my PE shortly) and I'm making in the low-mid 50's. This seens ridiculous, in my opinion.

What I'd like to hear about from the structural guys out there is what is the culture at your firm like. Do you have bosses popping in every day (or multiple times a day) to see what you're doing or if you're "finished yet"? How many hours do you typically work in a week? Does your company provide good computers and software? Do you make a fair salary? Are you required to stamp anything or is that only for the principals? Also, was the impression you got of your firm during the interview process indicative of the reality now that you're working there?

I'm really just trying to get a sense of what other structural firms out there are like.

 

[privateer]

StructuralEIT - Nice topic!

I think you are low, or at least slightly below average. But like Trackfiend said (good post), depends on your industry and location - I have friends in petro/chem in Houston and the Gulf area and he is spot-on about the salary ranges in those areas. And sounds like asking for a raise is not likely, since you've just had salary cuts.

Here's my personal experience on the whole salary/work culture balance....

Twice in my career I changed jobs strictly for money. Both times I was VERY HAPPY where I was, but VERY under-paid. The employers held very longterm multiple year contracts, locked-in job security almost unbelieveable by today's standards. The employers cared about professional growth, nurtured a teaming environment, and expected the highest quality and integrity standards from everyone. Great mutual respect between Project Managment, design disciplines, and client. But the nature of the contracts with the clients hemmed in the salary ranges, and the increases allotted per the contract each year did not keep up with cost of living, or the local market.

When I moved, the pay increases were incredible - like 50%-60%....

And I was freakin' miserable! Horrible projects. Unreasonable clientele. Ineffective leadership/management. No teaming culture, and actually a purposely maintained culture of antagonism between the disciplines and Project Management. Blatant disreguard to local laws/regulations for stamping design work (I'm a P.E.). On several occasions, I was asked to stamp work outside of my discipline , or work I had no control or knowledge (I refused everytime I was asked on the basis of ethics). Always worried because my neck was on the chopping block (especially after refusing to "rubber-stamp" work)....

...But hey, I made a lot of money... at a time when I needed it....

Both times I switched back as soon as I could. Each time I took a CUT in pay to get back where I was.

Hate to make this a "What's more important, money or happiness?" cliche - it is part of it. But there is something else to consider here - if you decide to leave, be VERY, VERY careful during your job search. Scrutinize them. Very hard. Get a good idea of there business ethics. Ask THEM for references. There ARE companies out there that are great places to work AND pay a lot. Be patient, and search hard. Treat your move as a BIG STEP, because it is.

I found the place that (I hope - a lot of uncertainty in the world these days) is my last stop. It has everything I look for in an employer, inline with my values, ethics, and expectations (that includes a FAIR and REASONABLE salary). If they ever cut or freeze my salary, I'll keep this job, and moonlight somewhere else - maybe in another profession/skill - before moving just for money. Always wanted to tend a bar! LOL!

 

[Ron]

The small firms I've worked in have been my own (from 1 to 13 employees). No one to complain to or about but myself. Vowed to never treat employees as corporate numbers and never did.

I've also worked for one of the larger engineering firms in the world (over 4000 employees at one point) and for a smaller, regional firm (500 employees).

In the larger firm, I went from young staff engineer, almost right out of school (had 18 months in manufacturing structural design of water and wastewater treatment systems) to eventually becoming a VP and Senior Technical Principal. It was not without strife! I did not like the corporate structure and it got worse as the company became run by bean counters and the engineering (which got them where they were by reputation and profitability) became secondary to "the business of being a business". I didn't learn to bite my tongue and let the corporate structure alone. I was vocal in my dislike for the way the engineering disciplines were being commoditized within the corporation. Eventually I decided to leave...they would have probably fired me at some point, but I was fortunate enough to produce profit for them, so they tolerated me longer than I thought they would! Anyway, the reason I left was because of a corporate culture that I couldn't abide.

The regional firm was better, but partly because my relative position was higher and I reported directly to the president and the board of directors. The president was excellent to work with...the board of directors...not so much. I left and started my own firm (2nd one) and I've been doing that for the past 5+ years.

I guess my problem is that I don't like senseless authority and prefer to be a technical person with a lot of autonomy. Typical engineer, huh?

 

[Lion06]

Ron-

On the money, man!
That's one of the things I love about where I'm at. I have only 4.5 years of experience, but have a great deal of autonomy. There are NEVER any intra-office politics. No one tries to take credit for work that someone else does (even in the course of conversation, people generally give credit to the appropriate individual for ideas or issues that were discovered). It's a nice way to work.

 

[RacingAZ]

SEIT, I read some of your posts here and you seem to be a very technically knowledgeable engineer so I have to conclude that you're a top notch talent.

Having said that, in a typical consulting firm your salary is somewhat tied to the company's charge out rate. Right now, you're at the designer level. Having a PE is key as your charge out rate will go up. When you get your PE and ready to ask for a raise, find out first your company's charge out rates so you have an idea how high you can go.

Owners won't tell you this but it is the reality in the consulting industry. If the multiplier isn't there, the company can't really make money off you no matter how good you are as an engineer.

 

[IceNine]

StructuralEIT: You probably do deserve more, but these are extraordinary times. I imagine most people haven't gotten raises in the last 2 or 3 years. If you haven't, that means you were making low-mid 50's with 1.5 years experience, which isn't bad.

It sounds like you work at a really great company in terms of the projects/clients and the office culture. It would be hard for most to pass that up.

I'd say if things pick up and you don't get a healthy raise, maybe then you should look around...

 

[Ron]

SEIT...stick it out. Have the straight conversation when you get your PE/SE results. It does sound like you're in a position that you generally like, but need to be appreciated more. There are two components to compensation...the tangible money and the intangible appreciation. When you have them both, even if one is lower than the other, it's not so bad...besides, you'll only work for someone else another few years and it will be SEIT and Associates (but you damn well had better change that handle before then...you've been warned here multiple times and you have not yet given us a decent handle to approve...get on it you slacker!)

 

[B16A2]

The culture at my A/E firm is about the same as you describe. 100 person and we do a wide variety of projects across the US so my resume is packed. Average about 50 hour weeks but it is fast paced with a mix of design office work and field inspections. Boss expects a lot but mentors a lot. Eng tips during company time is not allowed.

At 5 years experience I was at 70k + stock option + ~6k bonus. That was only two years ago before my masters in the low cost of living midwest.

I think you're getting taken big time. You need to pack ship and move out of the area if you cant find better. You're sacrificing your retirement making that little.

 

[delagina]

you only make 50k per year and work 60 hrs/week without OT pay. wow. i've seen your posts and i think you are a good engineer. you may want to try Oil and Gas Onshore or Offshore industry.

my base salary is 100k+ per year. i also get paid OT.

 

[slickdeals]

All you Oil and Gas shore guys are making me jealous. We all work way too hard to be only paid peanuts.

 

[frv]

Haha.. I agree slick; but on the other hand, I imagine it may get a bit monotonous after a while.

 

[slickdeals]

I guess there are only a few lucky people who get paid tons of money doing what they love. Most of us either do what we love and get underpaid or do what we don't really care much for only 'cos it pays us so damn well.

 

[shacked]

First off great post and topic. I think that sharing information like this gives a person more of an objective view of their situation.

That being said, I now feel reaffirmed with my choice of employers. I live in Southern California and like SEIT have 5 years of experience and I just took the PE. I work for a small structural firm, owner (PE), 2 other EIT's, myself and another and a drafter. My pay is hourly, no OT, low, low 50's and I work no more then 40hrs a week. I wear shorts and flip flops to work, but when required I do dress nicer for clients. Rather flexible schedule so I can surf in the morning and there is a shower at work, so I can shower right after I get out of the water.

I have worked there for 3 years and have had 2 raises, obviously none in the past year. We are busy, with custom residential but the work comes in waves. Really busy for 3-4 weeks, then there is a lull for 2 or so weeks.

Not sure if I will get a raise once I get my PE, due to high overhead and with the current market clients can demand lower rates because others are charging less just to get the jobs.

I have looked for other employment but there is none within reasonable driving distance, and I am unwilling to commute more then 1 hour each way. To me it is more important to spend my time how I want to, instead of "wasting" small portions of my life sitting in a car to and from work.

I have grown to accept this and the pay, or lack of, that comes with this freedom. I now realize that the only way that I will ever make more money is to venture out on my own once I get my PE. I am fine with this, because right now I run all of my own projects at work and the owner rarely reviews the final projects. I try and force him to review them, to catch any errors but he just doesn't have the time. I am fairly confident but if there is something that I am not sure about he is always willing to step in.

Ultimately it comes down to your priorities.

 

[bridgebuster]

SEIT -

In my office (NYC) the entry level salary is about $60K. Peole with 10-15 years can get $100K. From working with an office in your area for many years, I know there's about a 10% difference in salaries. Based on what engineers with similar experience in my office get, I think you're underpaid. BTW - None of them are in your league. If you're going to sit down with the boss, keep in mind, money isn't about what you've done for them, it's about what you will do for them. Also, if you quit, another thing to keep in mind: Never take the counter offer because in six months the factors that made you quit will reappear.

Young engineers in my office won't work a minute of overtime (which is paid at straight time). I think that comes with the times. They and their parents are further removed from those who lived through the Depression. When I was young, my first boss said never turn down overtime. Unfortunately now, I'm working 50-55 hours/week but only getting paid 40.

Office Culture? Corporate culture? I agree with Mike, it's in the refrigerator, the microwave, the toaster oven. To paraphrase Tip O'Neill, "All culture is local." I've worked in design, construction, small companies, medium, large, and currently an extremely large company (as the result of numerous mergers & acquisitions over the past 20+ years.)It's you and the people around you who make the culture.

What I've found is that in a smaller company/office there's a shared sense of common purpose. As the company/office gets bigger things change. Where I work, the benefits are good, the company supports continuing education, we have software, bagels, blah, blah, blah but as privateer pointed out there's antagonism between deparments and project management. That's because utilization has replaced common purpose. If you have to screw another department so be it. Even within my department there's something missing; we're not one group. If you go out for an interview try to get a feel for how your potential co-workers interact with each other.

 

[trainguy]

bridgebuster,

Could you cut down your work week to 40 hrs, and buy your own bagels...?

tg

 

[rowingengineer]

From my experience, either you learn to talk hard money with your employer/clients or learn to be the statue. Once you have your PE and things haven’t improved in the pay scale start your own company, however you have better have leant how to discuss money with your clients by the stage or all you find is more birds.


ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION.”

 

[privateer]

StructuralEIT,

You are certainly worth more to your employer as a P.E. You need to ask for a raise as soon as you earn your P.E. status.

As someone already mentioned (to lazy to scroll up to find who said it to give proper credit, sorry..), learn how your company charges your services to clients. That's GREAT advice!! Find out the rates, and the brackets for each rate (like associate/E.I., P.E., Lead, PM, whatever..). Find out how YOU fit in with all this NOW. Then extrapolate where you would be with your P.E.

Your employer can charge you out to clients at a higher rate bracket as a P.E. But here's the thing, your salary as a new cert'ed P.E. is less than someone with say 10 years, the company is making more money for your serves than a more senior P.E. in the same rate backet. A smart project/office manager would know how to assign the right projects to you based on complexity, experience level, etc. to maximize this profit margin based on productivity for your expertise level. But even better margins if you take on more challenging projects equal with that 10 yr P.E. The client may not review your resume for every task assigned - the client just knows he's getting a P.E., not how many years of experience you have (and may not care..).

...Ok, I might be getting a little off topic, so I'll start reeling myself back in and tie into the topic. I'm guessing you work at one of the "great company culture but low pay" places. If that's the case then I would also assume there is a positive culture of communication between employees and management. So, use this to your advantage - communicate your expectations to your management, make them aware that you understand their expectations in you, and (armed with your research) show them how your raise/advancement could be of mutual benefit to both you and the company.

 

[Lion06]

Thanks for all the input guys. A couple thoughts - I question how much the PE means for companies sometimes. I know it means a lot for my marketability, but I would never be sealing anything at my current company and I just found out they have a strict no moonlighting policy. Also, I don't expect to be working so much overtime for much longer. That extreme schedule has been for the last 6 months (give or take). As far as who decides how much OT I work........... No one tells me I need to work the OT, but I need to put in enough hours to meet the deadlines. We are wrapping up the largest project to come through our company (almost $200 M construction cost), and the schedule was EXTREMELY short for the size of the project.

It seems like most firms have reasonable working conditions, so that makes me feel a little better about looking when I do. At my last review, my boss said the company just isn't in a position to give raises yet, so I doubt I'll see anything when I get my PE results. The statement about not being able to give raises is disconcerting given the number of "free" hours they get from me and others.

I know there's a lot more than salary to consider, but it is a factor. I often think that it's better to work for less dpi g something you enjoy, but I don't think that doing something you enjoy is a valid reason for an employer to lowball salaries. I'm not good at dealing with these kinds of issues (difficult issues of a personal nature, which, in my opinion, salary is) - I have no problems speaking my mind about technical issues and diagreements there, but the personal issues are another thing for me.

I think I've said this before, but I think my part of my company's philosophy is to hire fresh grads and keep them, thereby keeping salaries low. Every engineer in our office has been with the company since graduating college with the exception of one who started 1 year after graduating (1 year with another company). It seems to work for them and few leave. It's not good for our salaries, though.

As far as my boss popping in, I don't mind it and I communicate with my boss daily, I just don't want someone breathig down my neck asking if I'm done every ten minutes. I'm a professional, I know what I need to do, and I'll get it done on time.

 

[shacked]

SEIT, did you say that you are working those extra hours for free? Man, in my opinion that is crazy. One question, why?

I have never understood people who do this. Now, salaried is a different thing, but then again those people are usually compensated a little better then hourly. Don't get me wrong, I am all for working hard and getting the job done, but there is no way that I am going to work for free just so some rich a-hole can have his custom home or building built within budget.

Now again, I am speaking with respect to an employee/employer relationship, not a sole proprietor.

 

[Lion06]

Yes, I gave a lot of hours for free. I'm salaried, so anything over 40 hours is uncompensated. I can't tell my boss, "sorry, we're not going to hit these deadlines because I'm not working more than 40 hours". I'm working this weekend to hit another deadline for a different project.

As far as bonuses go - we used to get a modest bonus, but that the way of the raise 2 years ago. I'm not expecting one this year either, and that is the hardest to swallow given that I've given easily 400 hours for free in the last 6 months - probably more.

 

[Lion06]

One last thought - it will be interesting to see how my resume is viewed by other firms. I've only managed small projects - ones in which the engineering and project management can be handled by one guy. On the larger projects I typically do the engineering and bits and pieces of the coordination.

I do believe that I'm definitely one of the best engineers in our office, from a technical standpoint. That being said, it's probably hard to get a sense of one's technical aptitude in an interview when most engineers are perfectly competent - so I won't stand out there. It seems like (and makes sense to methat) the project management is what people want to see.
Now that I should be down to 50 hours or less for a little while 'til shops for this large project start rolling in, I'm going to dive pretty hard into Revit in the hopes that will bolster my resume.