Culture at Structural Firms 7

[Lion06]

I'm getting ready to begin a pretty intensive job search (I'm still employed, just looking for something that gives me more time at home and compensates me more appropriately). One of my biggest concerns about leaving is the potential for a culture shock at a new firm. By culture shock, I mean corporate culture. Right now I have a lot of autonomy - I (for the most part) decide what I want to work on and when as long as the work gets done. I don't have anyone breathing down my neck asking about getting stuff done. My colleagues and boss value my opinions and will always (maybe usually) acknowledge if I have a valid point when we disagree. My boss is a pretty happy, easy-going guy (though his expectations are very high) and I recognize that personal life and circumstances can easily sway the tide as to whether someone is a good or bad (read overbearing) boss.

We also have an extensive library, top notch computer systems, lots of software, continuing education, and we get to work on some pretty prestigious projects with world class architects. The down side is I don't feel properly compensated (this goes up exponentially when I think about all the "free" hours I've given working 55-60 hours/week). We haven't had raises in two years (coming up on three years very soon) and we just recently got back a 7% pay cut. What this means is that I have almost 5 years of experience (will have my PE shortly) and I'm making in the low-mid 50's. This seens ridiculous, in my opinion.

What I'd like to hear about from the structural guys out there is what is the culture at your firm like. Do you have bosses popping in every day (or multiple times a day) to see what you're doing or if you're "finished yet"? How many hours do you typically work in a week? Does your company provide good computers and software? Do you make a fair salary? Are you required to stamp anything or is that only for the principals? Also, was the impression you got of your firm during the interview process indicative of the reality now that you're working there?

I'm really just trying to get a sense of what other structural firms out there are like.

 

[Ron]

SEIT...your company has the same philosophy as the larger firm for which I used to work. It's one of the reasons I left (that and the administrative beaurocracy that had developed). Keep the salaries low by hiring sharp but inexperienced engineers, keep them until they see what we're doing, then let them move on if they want. It's common, it's profitable, and if they're careful, they won't get into big trouble with technical mistakes...hopefully. One of the problems with smaller firms is that they forget that last one (technical mistakes) and sometimes don't have the technical procedures in place to prevent such.

You are a typical engineer with respect to the personal issues:

I'm not good at dealing with these kinds of issues (difficult issues of a personal nature, which, in my opinion, salary is)

. Most good technical people abhor these conversations and either grossly undervalue themselves (most often) or grossly overvalue themselves (that happens, too). The middle ground seems to have to come from the management side, which will usually side with the lower valuation because it costs them less. It isn't often that you hear your manager say "SEIT...you're a terrific engineer...we're giving you a 10 percent salary increase effective now". You have to ask.

As for the free hours....that argument gets thrown about in the forums routinely. I've never worked on an hourly basis except when working alone. I've always been on salary and always gave more than 40 hours. That was our culture and it was a matter of pride, competition and accomplishment. I think I was ultimately rewarded...sometimes tangibly, sometimes intangibly...both can be important. One pays the bills....the other builds your reputation and competence. Don't fret about "free" time. You'll always give it because of your diligence. Others never will because of their obstinance. Somehow, diligence seems to be better, at least in my opinion.

Good luck. Maybe you should consider looking elsewhere, but have that tough conversation with your boss...at the least it will give you practice in doing that so the next time it won't be so hard!

 

[Lion06]

I think I will have that conversation - I'll wait until I get the PE results, but I will have it. I was also planning on having a conversation about a more flexible schedule after the new year (not necessary to start until august, but I thought I would bring it up now that way I know how hard I need to look for a new job).

Anyway, it just dawned on me (as I'm developing plans this morning), that they'd much rather take 15 hours over 40 from me than give me 2 hours under 40.

 

[Ron]

Anyway, it just dawned on me (as I'm developing plans this morning), that they'd much rather take 15 hours over 40 from me than give me 2 hours under 40.

Always the case!!

I'll bet you feel guilty when you take a little personal time or a long lunch, too!

 

[abusementpark]

Yes, I gave a lot of hours for free. I'm salaried, so anything over 40 hours is uncompensated. I can't tell my boss, "sorry, we're not going to hit these deadlines because I'm not working more than 40 hours". I'm working this weekend to hit another deadline for a different project.

Are the other employees in your firm putting in similar amounts of overtime, while maintaining good spirits? It's hard to imagine others not being frustrated if they are putting in 15-20 free hours each week. I understand the philosophy behind salaried employees, but the excessive overtime is usually compensated with generous profit-sharing, and profits are made public to the entire firm on regular basis, so you what to expect at the end of the year.

Do they report profitability at all? I'm suspect that the firm may actually be doing quite well, but they are hiding that under guise of the poor overall state of this country's economy. You would know better than any of us, but they may be taking advantage of an unfortunate situation, which is a pretty poor philosophy.

I think I will have that conversation - I'll wait until I get the PE results, but I will have it. I was also planning on having a conversation about a more flexible schedule after the new year (not necessary to start until august, but I thought I would bring it up now that way I know how hard I need to look for a new job).

I've learned early on in my career that you have speak up when you feel your compensation is inadequate. It helps to bolster your argument with relevant salary data and some good talking points that vouch for the value you bring to the firm. You may be surprised to find out how far they are willing to go to keep you. We all know your technical skills are superb. I'm sure your bosses have taken notice.

However, you may find the easiest way to get adequate compensation is to find another job. I understand that you love all the other aspects of your current job, but based on what you have described, I'd have some serious concerns about long-term treatment and management philosophy.

 

[Lion06]

Ron-
Lunch? What's that? Seriously, though, I haven't taken linger than a 15 minute lunch (often none at all) in 6-9 months.

Abusementpark-
The closest we ever get to any financial disclosure is a generic statement during periodic company updates that we're "in a strong financial position". I believe it because I know what they're paying people.


I know that one guy has been putting in more time than I have for the last several months and at least two others have been putting in comparable time. No one complains (out loud, anyway). The company realy does foster the "WHATEVER it takes to get the job done" philosophy. It always makes me wonder why no one leaves. They're quick to get rid of sub-par engineers and often make it known (to us and to clients) that they only hire the best and brightest, but supply mediocre (at best) salaries. I honestly thought (a year or two in) that at this point in my career (5th review with a PE) I'd be getting bumped to mid 60's. I'm 20% below that!

 

[rowingengineer]

SEIT,
I'm calling you out, time for you to harden up, stop being a diligent engineer and start being a diligent engineer that can talk hard with his boss. If the boss is considering promoting you, this will be a good sign for him, as he will want you to be able to talk hard money with his clients.

Why on earth would you wait to talk to your boss about an increase in your salary until you had your PE? That only reduces the number of times you can reasonably talk to your boss about an increase. Also are you going to measure your worth on the PE exam? Hell no! What about if you made a mistake and fail, what does that say, your only worth 50? If you let the exam mean something then your risking a lot on it, truth is that you should already know your worth by the way people around you look at your ideas, the exam only allows you a further legal avenue for advancement of your worth, not how “good” your engineering skills are.

If it was me, on Monday I would ask my boss for a meeting to discuss your role in the company, give him 1 max to find a suitable time. I would right down ten facts before the meeting, no general comments about your abilities and work load. AKA, for the last 6 weeks I have averaged 10.5hrs of over time. Not “I am doing a lot of over time”. After the meeting you can then decide if you want to start looking elsewhere.

After I got the positive result in the PE, again I would request a meeting with the boss, with a few extra facts. AKA the state considers me competent; or I now have the ability to work alone and so on, maybe even sign off on projects in my skill range if you compensate me for it.


ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION.”

 

[Ron]

SEIT...actually RE has a point. You know damned well you'll pass the PE/SE...we all know you will. Go ahead and have the discussion...with confidence. You said that they opt for the best and brightest...use that to your advantage....they might question why you would be doing this before you get your results...tell them that they hired you considering that you might be good...and you've proved that they were right, now move to the next level.

Tell them that the results will probably be in by Feb 2011. When they come in you want some significant consideration of an increase...you've made the sacrifices, you've proved you are valuable to the company, and you didn't ask for the increase before you proved your worth...now it's time for them to step up and prove their worth to you...otherwise, you need to do what's best for your personal growth and career...

Go for it....you're damned good at what you do...make them know it.

 

[rowingengineer]

I think Ron has pointed out what we have all be saying in one way or another, we all think you’re a good engineer, have some confidence in that fact.

ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION.”

 

[Lion06]

RE-
Point taken. I probably won't do it Monday, maybe next Monday. I need to think through, write down, analyze, and rehearse what I'll say so it doesn't sound rehearsed. I'd also like to get some salary info. Anyone know where I can find that? I've looked on salary.com and a couple others, but they never seem to apply directly.

I definitely undervalue myself, as Ron noted many do.

 

[rowingengineer]

given I am halfway round the world, the salary info I would give you will be pointless, I always found it better to work to what you think is the right money. however if you need a good idea of what you worth is, ask those who you would consider about the same level, this can be at engineering functions or other, wouldn't ask your workmates they tell white lies to make themselves feel good.

ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION.”

 

[B16A2]

If you have to have a conversation to get your salary within 5% of your value you should just look for another job. Your employer is sending you a strong message. Your current salary is an insult, and they're likely the type who'll give you a raise and mark you as the first to go when a new cheaper new graduate comes around.

 

[slickdeals]

SEIT:
Are you the only one of a few people who is busting ass in your firm, or is it corporate wide? It seems you are getting a lot of respect and "love" at your workplace but not enough $$$. We all think we are underpaid at some point or the other.

I feel you will CERTAINLY make more money elsewhere, but would you rather be challenged from an engineering standpoint (which I think you love), pushed to your limits or will you rather just be doing a 9-5 easy job while making a ton of money? The engineer in me tells me the former.

Stick it out and wait for things to turn around a little. We are all in the same boat other than the oil and petroleum guys.

 

[Lion06]

B16A2-
What's the message they're sending? I don't think it's as much a message that they're sending ME, as it is a coporate philosophy. I learned about a year or so ago that my company has two starting salary offers - one for a BS and one for a MS (both for new grads). I also learned that they don't negotiate these salaries - I learned this from two other engineers at my firm. I came in at the BS level, but at my first review was given the standard raise plus the difference between my starting salary and the starting salary of a new grad with a MS. My boss told me that he felt my technical aptitude was at least comparable to someone coming in with a MS and he wanted to compensate me for my knowledge and not the paper. I think anything beyond that is out of his control.


Slick-
I'm definitely not the only one working these kinds of hours. It happens more in my department than others, but it is definitely a culture that is fostered company wide. I hear what you're saying about being challenged, and, believe me, I LOVE it. There comes a point, though, where you feel taken advantage of. I'm not sure I'm there yet, given I'm so early in my career, but I'm approaching it. I'm hoping for a very nice Christmas bonus this year because of all the extra hours put in. I shouldn't be expecting it, but I'm hopeful........we'll see.

 

[Ron]

SEIT...You are currently classified under the ASCE categories as an Engineer III, about to go to Engineer IV. An Engineer III is roughly equivalent to a GS-9 or GS-10 in government employment. You would be at the top of that scale or somewhere between $55,000 and $60,000 per year.

The Engineer IV category would be roughly equivalent to a GS-11 with a salary of around $60,000 to $65,000 per year.

 

[abusementpark]

If you have to have a conversation to get your salary within 5% of your value you should just look for another job. Your employer is sending you a strong message. Your current salary is an insult, and they're likely the type who'll give you a raise and mark you as the first to go when a new cheaper new graduate comes around.

Exactly, I'd have similar concerns if I were in this situation. Even though they may make him happy now, it may ultimately be a continuous struggle to get proper compensation in the long run.

I'm definitely not the only one working these kinds of hours. It happens more in my department than others, but it is definitely a culture that is fostered company wide. I hear what you're saying about being challenged, and, believe me, I LOVE it. There comes a point, though, where you feel taken advantage of. I'm not sure I'm there yet, given I'm so early in my career, but I'm approaching it. I'm hoping for a very nice Christmas bonus this year because of all the extra hours put in. I shouldn't be expecting it, but I'm hopeful........we'll see.

Are the higher-ups in your department putting in similar amounts of overtime as well? If not, I'd be really pissed.

I think you should definitely expect a very nice Xmas bonus for the amount of overtime you have worked. If you are going to find out soon whether or not there will a Xmas bonus, then it may be worthwhile to wait and see what happens with that before you "have the talk".

SEIT...You are currently classified under the ASCE categories as an Engineer III, about to go to Engineer IV. An Engineer III is roughly equivalent to a GS-9 or GS-10 in government employment. You would be at the top of that scale or somewhere between $55,000 and $60,000 per year.

The Engineer IV category would be roughly equivalent to a GS-11 with a salary of around $60,000 to $65,000 per year.

Are you sure about those numbers? For my region, ASCE reports average salaries of $62.5k for Engineer III and $74.6k for Engineer IV. I know there are regional differences, but I would not expect it to be that great.

 

[bridgebuster]

SEIT -

A few things to think about before talking to the boss; this way he doesn't catch you off guard.

Are your projects mainly lump sum contracts? That could work against you because a LS contract gives a company a better opportunity to increase its profit without the client knowing. If you're on a T&M project or similar the profit is known so it's really a matter of juggling staff hours.

When you said you are a salaried employee, does that mean you get paid even if you have no work on a particular day? If that's the case, you're boss could throw it back about how they carried you in the slow times. In my case and most of my friends at other companies salaried means we're not entitled to time and one-half, assuming we get paid for the OT and if you're not billable, you're gone.

Is a Christmas bonus more or less a certainty each year (kudos for saying Christmas)? Granted a Christmas bonus never compensates for all the free hours but it's something. BTW if you go to work for a publicly traded company you'll probably never see a bonus again.

What's the turn over rate at your company? Is it more than 10%? A few years ago, I was told that was the industry standard. At the time the company I was with had a couple of years between 15-18% and the office I was in had 25% one year. This was due to management and other issues more than salary. If there's a low turn over rate the boss could say the problem is you. If there's a high turn over it could mean they don't care if people leave or it could lead to the realization that a high turn over costs them money.

Do they pick up a larger share of your health insurance than most companies?

Do they kick in a bigger share on the 401k than most? It seems like most companies cap the contribution at around 4% of salary.

Some things to think about. All the best.

 

[dhengr]

SEIT:
Your’s is an age old question, we all think we are underpaid, we sometimes like the boss and generally communicate with him just fine, but he’s an S.O.B. because he doesn’t pay us more. Cut back on your hours worked, slowly but surely to 45-50hrs/wk, it is not reasonable that they shrink a two month project to 5 weeks and expect you to make up the difference in unpaid overtime. If they do that to you, some deadlines just don’t get met; and in some way you condition them to expect this performance if you keep giving it. They actually do understand this but will gladly take your free effort if you keep giving it. Funny thing, I always work the 60hrs. for no extra pay over 40 hrs., and my wife asked, are you ever going to get paid or recognized for that effort; no, they fired me because I went against the grain of their corp. culture, and fought for our engineers and draftsmen when they were blamed for problems which weren’t our fault. So I started my own engineering co. and took some of their clients, and did O.K., some international travel when it was still fun, some really big clients, but never got rich, you just don’t do that selling your time or services, sort of a commodity. Invent a better mouse trap or a steel framing connection that everyone needs and will use, that’s the way to get rich.

You seem to be a very smart and capable young engineer to me from what I have seen in your posts, I would love to have you working for me, that could be quite interesting for both of us. But, then I’d be your S.O.B. Funny thing is, that even though I run my own engineering company, you make about as much as I do, with fewer hours, and many less headaches, and you don’t have nearly the 45yrs. of experience I do. Where’s the fairness in that? I’m gona cut your pay so I earn what I’m really worth. Besides that, I think your benefits are costing us too much, so let’s talk about that too.

Intangible items; does your girlfriend want to move, do you have good friendships and family where you are, do you like where you are, what are relocation and dislocation costs, is the grass really greener, all of these are questions with no certain (absolute) answers.

 

[Ron]

ABP...the salaries I gave were the GS standards. Private sector salaries often run a bit higher. I didn't have the full ASCE salary survey, but your numbers are probably more accurate.

I believe the classifications are correct.

 

[B16A2]

EIT:
The message they're sending is that they don't care if you leave or not! Do you think your salary screams "please stay with us!"? The salary you stated doesn't justify a good office library or software. Your substandard pay would only be worth it if you were working 9-5 because time can be a valuable thing. Obviously that's not happening.

As you said, it's corporate culture. It doesn't matter if you or your boss asks corporate for more than their typical raise, you'll be marked for deletion by corporate. They obviously just want to market the best and brightest to their clients but not actually carry through.

 

[Lion06]

Bridgebuster-
good questions. Yes, most contracts are lump sum. I was told a while back by a senior engineer that it gives the company the beat chance to make the most money. Yes, salaried means I get paid even if I have no work for a particular day, however, that's NEVER happened. 401(k) contribution was 3%. I don't use their healthcare - my wife's is better. As far as turnover - I've seen many let go, but only two leave voluntarily in my 4.5 years.

Abusementpark-
our director works a LOT, but our principal doesn't.

dh-
I like my boss a lot. That's what makes it hard to leave. If he were an ass it would be a no-brainer.