Deceptive Client Concerns 1

[McLJ]

Hi All and thanks in advance for your input. Here's my conundrum:

Roughly 4 years ago, a tenant in a residential property contacted me about a concern he had while performing some repairs. I told him at that time that I had no concerns about the issue he had contacted me about, but that if the City wanted a formal review then I would need a contract and payment. I never heard back from him.

Fast forward to this year: I was contacted by the property owner who informed me that the Building Official had requested an engineer's opinion during the course of some new 'repairs'. Upon entering the property it was immediately evident that there had been a great deal of renovation, not simply repairs. The handyman on site performing this work handed me a copy of a "Notice and Inspection Report" issued by the city Building Official. The report outlined a number if issues and insisted upon an complete structural review and permit application prior to work continuing. It was dated 2008 shortly after my conversation with the tenant.

My first issue was that the client had willingly misrepresented the work required. I contacted the building Official to make sure the report I had was the most recent and clarify exactly what he wanted as far as documentation. He wanted the full meal deal: report, photos and detailed plans suitable for permit application. I then informed my client that the work required to satisfy the Building Official was far more than originally understood and that the price would increase accordingly. She authorized me to continue and to pursue permits on her behalf.

In the mean time, she ignored all entreaties by the Building Official to contact her, at which time he contacted me to encourage her to call. Then, yesterday, the building official found both the owner and the handyman at the house, at which point he demanded, again, that all work stop until permits were issued. (That's what happens when your property is on Main Street less than 2 blocks from City Hall) He also told her at that time that in his opinion, the house was at the end of it's useful life and she should consider tearing it down as the cost of repairs would exceed to value of the property. (I agree, by the way.) He also issued a formal letter outlining the same with a request that I provide the report to him directly as soon as it is complete. This letter was copied to me by both the Building Official and the Client.

I have since received an email from the Client requesting I not deliver the report to the Building Official. Here are my thoughts:

1. Client has not been forthcoming from the beginning and has resisted all attempts at conversation by the Building Official.

2. Client insists the repairs are cosmetic and everything done up to the new letter should somehow be grandfathered in. (Considerable un-permitted structural work has been done since my first visit in 2008.)

3. I strongly suspect that if she does not like the contents of my report, she will try and find someone to write a more sympathetic report - if possible.

4. She's not going to like my report. The structure, built in the 70's, was very poorly detailed and there has been a great deal of water intrusion (top to bottom) resulting in extensive mold and rot. Previous additions were not built to any code I am aware of and some structural members are grossly over-spanned. In short, I feel it is not habitable nor safe.

5. I feel I have a duty to provide this information to the Building Official as soon as the report is finished as it is a matter of public safety.

So - Here's my question: Do I submit the report to the Building Official as he requested or not as my Client requested?

(NOTE: I am the only engineer in a very small rural town and I like being on the Building Official/Inspector's good side. Plus, he knows I'm preparing the report and plan to have it done on Monday. It's not relevant to my ethics question, but it certainly affects my working relationship with the city.)

 

[McLJ]

Oh - and #6: The only reason I am preparing this report is because the Building Official demanded it. The Client would not have hired me otherwise, because, obviously, replacing a 15' stretch of wall with a beam is "just cosmetic".

Lila J. McGrew
Evergreen Engineering & Design, LLC
Everson, WA

http://www.evergreeneng.com

 

[MikeHalloran]

You should submit the report to both of them, _AFTER_ you have been paid in full and the check has cleared.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[McLJ]

LOL Mike! I was thinking that, myself.

Lila J. McGrew
Evergreen Engineering & Design, LLC
Everson, WA

http://www.evergreeneng.com

 

[ztengguy]

I think you need to only give the report to her, and perhaps mention in passing to the BO that she has the report. He has the authority to stop work (by force if need be) until he is satisfied that items on your report are done. You work for her, and i would be worried she would try and sue you if the report is given to the BO as well.

 

[JAE]

1. Client has not been forthcoming from the beginning and has resisted all attempts at conversation by the Building Official.
That is between the Client and Building Official in my view. You have two bosses here: the client, and the public. You must look out for the public safety and welfare first and foremost. Your duties remain with the client unless the public is put at risk. Then you should act to notify the BO of any concerns. It appears that the BO is aware of the issues but at some point you may have to submit the report directly to them.

2. Client insists the repairs are cosmetic and everything done up to the new letter should somehow be grandfathered in. (Considerable un-permitted structural work has been done since my first visit in 2008.)
Your job as engineer is not to determine what falls under cosmetic work and structural work. That is the BO's responsibility. You may be asked to clarify what the work involves, but deciding whether portions of the work require a permit is not your job. You were hired to write a report, and prepare engineering plans.

3. I strongly suspect that if she does not like the contents of my report, she will try and find someone to write a more sympathetic report - if possible.
That is her prerogative at this point. Ultimately you may have a duty to notify the BO of a safety issue.

4. She's not going to like my report. The structure, built in the 70's, was very poorly detailed and there has been a great deal of water intrusion (top to bottom) resulting in extensive mold and rot. Previous additions were not built to any code I am aware of and some structural members are grossly over-spanned. In short, I feel it is not habitable nor safe.
You have a duty to report any structural concerns and code violations to the owner regardless of whether they like it or not.

5. I feel I have a duty to provide this information to the Building Official as soon as the report is finished as it is a matter of public safety.
You initially only have a duty to provide the information to the client. If you become aware that they are not acting on the report recommendations, then you have a duty to notify the BO. But I would initially not send to the BO and allow them the chance to do the right thing. Since you are in a on-horse-engineer town, you would most likely know whether they would hire another engineer or not. It doesn't become a "matter of public safety" until the public is exposed to the house - i.e. they complete their "repairs" and rent to a tenant. By then you would have a pretty good idea whether they did the right thing or not. Besides, the building official will certainly expect/demand that engineering design you mentioned earlier, whether it is from you or another engineer.

So - Here's my question: Do I submit the report to the Building Official as he requested or not as my Client requested?
I would submit to the client, but in the report include comments that recommend or demand that the work be completed as you recommend and I would also include a description of your responsibilities as a professional engineer with regard to the engineering laws (both legal and ethical) that you are under. Sometimes clients aren't aware that you have that specific duty as an engineer.

So bottom line for me is that you allow the process to develop and not rush into immediately sending the official the report without your client's consent. There are a few checks and balances here - the client can't get an occupancy permit without satisfying the building official with engineering participation or concurrence. The public isn't put in harm's way until the structure is occupied so you perhaps have time to notify the BO once you are sure the client isn't doing the right thing. Even with another engineer's report, hopefully the report will say similar things that you would or did say in your own report. (hopefully - I have a rosey view of engineers in general).

 

[McLJ]

ztengguy and JAE, Thank you for your feedback. JAE - you made some very good points and I thank you for your point-by-point analysis. I like to give people the benefit of doubt when it appears there may be a misunderstanding, and give them time to correct a problem. In this case, a complete structural evaluation/report was ordered by the BO as a result of the client's willful and continued non-compliance. There is a lot of history I didn't include above.

Cosmetic vs. structural: The removal of 15 feet of interior bearing wall is certainly a structural matter, of that I have absolutely no doubt. The fact that this work plus a great deal more occurred after my initial visit and the BO's first stop work notice is cause for great concern.

Yes, she ignored the first notice and continued to perform work. She was notified again last week that no work is allowed until a building permit is obtained, yet she still insisted on doing work. The building inspector found her and her handyman at the house Friday afternoon, which resulted in his letter informing her I was to provide him with my report as soon as it was complete.

At any rate, the question is now moot. I informed the BO I had been retained as he required. This morning I got to inform him I am no longer retained as the Engineer of Record for the property. Apparently, the owner did not like my response to her when she told me everything is "just cosmetic." She also didn't like it when I told her that work performed after the original stop work notice could not be "grandfathered in".

When she fired me, I did take the opportunity to inform her of my legal and ethical responsibilities and that I wasn't able to simply do what she wanted if what she wanted did not satisfy minimum code requirements. She accused me of conflict of interest.

The BO informed me he issued his 3rd stop work order about an hour ago, accompanied by the maximum penalties allowed - $250 per day per offense - followed by yet another order for a complete structural review and permit package that she insists she is not obliged to provide.

I billed her and told her she can have copies of all the work produced up to this point once payment has been made in full. I'm not holding my breath.

I can't decide if she likes being willfully defiant or if she's just plain totally off-her-rocker delusional. Whatever. I hate clients like this. Thankfully, they are few and far between.



Lila J. McGrew
Evergreen Engineering & Design, LLC
Everson, WA

http://www.evergreeneng.com

 

[JAE]

She accused me of conflict of interest.

That's when you can say to your ex-client = "Yes I always have a conflict of interest when my client puts the public safety at risk."

 

[MintJulep]

Well this all sounds like a fine mess at this point.

Clearly the building officer is aware of what is going on at the property and seems to be doing what he can to stop it. Unfortunately it seems that the local laws give him bark, but little bite.

So "the public" is informed and aware of the situation. I don't see that you have any further duty in that regard.

Eventually the building officer will probably be able to get the sheriff to put a lock on the property. No doubt you will get sucked into whatever legal proceedings follow.

Document all your discussions and other communications with everyone involved. Put everything in the file and wait for the subpoena.

 

[McLJ]

@JAE

@MintJulep - Yes, it's a mess, but fortunately, not mine anymore - except the getting paid part - that's not going to be pleasant. I doubt it will get as far as court, but you never know.

About that documentation - good reminder. I worked for a fairly large firm for many years where documentation was a Very Big Deal. As a singleton in my little town, I've become a bit lax in that department. Thanks.

Lila J. McGrew
Evergreen Engineering & Design, LLC
Everson, WA

http://www.evergreeneng.com

 

[IRstuff]

There's no accounting for mental stability and rationality of people. We had a contract with customer whose engineering organization was certified to be CMMI level 5, which is the highest level attainable for engineering orgs. They're supposed to have rules and procedures and lots of good stuff for maintaining engineering rigor. Suffice it to say, one PM actually refused to follow their own company's rules and procedures and had to be fired off the program.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[dik]

In many jurisdictions in Canada, design professionals have Lien rights. I don't know about the US.

With both commercial as well as residential projects for a tenant, it is advisable to advise the landlord of any alterations just to keep him in the 'loop'.

I cannot determine if the portion of work you had answered a simple question about was part of a major renovation undertaken by the tennant, and I assume it was, and the work undertaken greatly exceeded your simple answer.

Was the query from a friend? or aquaintance?

JAE, pretty much summed things up. You can approach the current landlord and provide him with an offer to provide the engineering services, in a proper manner as you would with any other renovation. To do anything else may further embroil you in possible litigation. Unless there is a life safety issue, or a requirement in your jurisdiction, you can advise the owner that 'they' should provide the AHJ with copies of all information.

Dik

 

[patprimmer]

It's not my area, but here I think if someone defies a stop work notice, buildings are locked. Police can remove people who defy the order and after any appeals are finalised, the local government can bring in bulldozers if the owner/builder refuses to correct structural faults.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[dik]

been involved with this sort of thing in our jurisdiction... and after the stop work order, they have to get a court injunction... after that, you're on your own...

Dik

 

[McLJ]

dik, I can file a lien as well, if it comes to it - and it probably will.

The tenant question was simple - he wanted to know if a crack in an existing beam was of concern. He indicated that the BO was concerned. It wasn't anything out of the ordinary for a heavy timber beam and told him so. That was the beginning and the end of my relationship with the tenant. He no longer lives there.

Had he chosen to retain my services, I would have required written permission from the owner and the owner would have had final say over all design changes, even if the tenant was paying the bill.

I was, until this morning, under contract with the owner. It is my understanding that the BO had no inkling that the work had continued after his initial stop work order until about 2 weeks ago. He's been pretty lenient up until today. If she persists in working on the property after today she's in for a world of trouble.

And Pat - I've never seen anything like this before - ever - so I have no idea what the next step might be if she persists. Typically, people come to the realization that they really do have to follow the rules and then do - much sooner than this. Is there an 'eye roll' font available?


Lila J. McGrew
Evergreen Engineering & Design, LLC
Everson, WA

http://www.evergreeneng.com

 

[TenPenny]

I would assume that she has watched too many of those 'flip' shows on tv, where they willingly ignore the laws, and browbeat contractors into doing things that are clearly wrong, and trying to stiff them along the way.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Get paid - then RUN don't walk

 

[Jboggs]

She is your client, and as such has rightful ownership of your work product after payment in full. She has the right to do with it as she pleases. The BO is not your client. You have no contract with him. However your transactions with your client are a matter of public record, right? So I see no reason that you should not inform the BO that you have given your report to your client. I do not think you have a right to share the details of that report with him without your client's permission.

 

[TenPenny]

And also to notify the BO that your contract with her has been terminated, so that you don't get dragged into anything.

 

[JAE]

However your transactions with your client are a matter of public record, right?

That isn't true.