Do I deserve a pay rise? Should I ask for one? If so, how? Thanks

[Cutiee]

Hello, it’s me again, here, asking questions, anyway, let’s get to it.

I graduated last summer and got a job as an E&I engineer in this company last November, so literally I have been working for this company for a year now, I get paid well lets say less than £20k a year as a graduate.

This is my first permanent job, I have no clue how much I should be paid and if I should get a pay rise after a year’s working experience.

Well my company has the reputation of under paying people, therefore a lot of people have left the company especially in my department, even my department manager is leaving end of the month =/

So I feel a bit shy to ask for a pay rise, I work very hard, yet ask lots of questions (don’t know if its good or bad)

I don’t want to find another job yet, I would like to stay in the company and learn. And I really wouldn’t threat my company to give me pay rise or I will leave, because I really don’t want to leave.

Any suggestions?

Thanks


Cuttie

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

We have no way to know whether you personally deserve a pay raise, but by searching through the job offerings in newspapers, websites, employment agencies, etc, you should be able to ascertain what the going rate for your area is.

Contact the other grads in your class for comparisons.

 

[PSE]

In my experience, I have always had an annual sit-down with my supervisor/manager for a performance review and appraisal. At the end, we talk about salary changes etc. One thing that you could consider in lieu of a higher salary is (if it is important to you), negotiating for something like additional paid vacation.

I forget the originator but here is a statement I remember.

"It is not that you get what you deserve, it is that you get what you negotiate."

Regards,

 

[ciflovi]

Hello Cuttie,

Definitely i could not say whether u need a rise or not as you dont want to say some approximate figure close to ur real salary.

Dont hide the truth to lawyer, Doctor and Eng-Tips members (especially if you expect some useful tips).

Less than 20000 could be 12000(severely underpaid) or could be 19500(somewhat, OK!!!).

But,I suggest dont ask for rise. Reasons...

1. Your company is reputed for underpaying.
2. Your manager is also leaving himself, perhaps due to pay issues.
3. It is time for Layoff not for pay rise. Dont let your management know your dissatisfaction.

If you think that your job is fine, coworkers are great and good work environment then stay back, learn and get ready for boom time to jump ship.

In my experience, it never went well with management and it spoiled the work environment. Be careful and All the best.

 

[jmw]

Interesting question.
Of course, UK companies discourage employees discussing their salaries amongst themselves because in some cases the stated reason is true, the recipient is being paid better than his co-workers and if they all want his money then, well, there is only so much money in the pot to share round. In other cases, it is a useful ploy to keep everyone on a low salary thinking it is the norm.

Now I have no idea what a graduate engineer should earn in the UK these days so it will be interesting to see what others in your position, similar industry etc. can say about it (though how many on this site are young recently graduated engineers? I wonder what is the mean length of time for an engineer to discover such sites?) but less than £20,000 sounds like a good place to be, I mean, there is only up from there.

Now of course, when you were interviewed salary and prospects should have been discussed and if the employer didn't raise it then you ought to have but, yes, first job you don't want to sound too grasping nor unrealistic and you want it to appear that the job is the thing. Well, first job it probably is.

Now we reach an important milestone, 12 months on the job and within that period there ought to have been a performance review.
At one time no one noticed you or cared about you unless you failed to show up for a few weeks or you died on the job but these days an enlightened management are supposed to sit down once a year with each employee and exchange ideas, appraise each other and discuss the future.

This is now the time to really discuss "what's in it for me?".
You've lasted a year.
They didn't let you go when they could without penalty, we'll assume there have been no serious disagreements and that your work is at least adequate.

With one year in you now also start to have something to put in your CV that others can look at and measure.
You start to become a marketable commodity.

So when you get your review (I assume you haven't had it yet or you would have said and said what they said about you and you about them) you should be prepared to put this on the table.

In the UK I'm not sure what available data there is on salaries.
What you can do is look at the situations vacant and see what is being offered both generally and with respect to your own experience and within your industry more particularly.

In other words, you will need to do some research.
You won't get all the answers here, just some suggestions. Probably including some that say young grads expect too much etc etc. and some that say employers exploit them too much.

The most obvious thing to say is that you may never get a good salary at your first employer who will think of you as "the graduate" for the next 20 years if you let them, and what you really have to do is find out how long is the optimum length of stay before you can safely move without it being considered too soon or too late.

I think you may need to consider that the only path to a good salary is to be prepared to move on within a couple of years.
Cynically, while we all want to say that that first job is where you gained practical experience of being a working engineer, for many it is simply to have something solid to put in a CV so as to move on as a young new engineer with some experience and a track record.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Cutiee]

Thanks guys,

Unfortunately I’m the only young female graduate in my department, all the rest are experienced older gentlemen. I get paid just tiny bit below 20.

We recently lost 2 very good & experienced E&I engineers because of pay issue, my manager (the one that’s leaving) is going to have an annual sit-down with me, but he told me not to ask him for a pay rise, as even himself is leaving over pay issue.

I’m not greedy, I never thought about asking for a pay rise this year, but one of the experienced colleagues who has always looked after me in the past year told me that I should ask for a pay rise. Apparently he’s getting paid more than double of what I’m getting.


Cuttie

 

[TheTick]

Some employers are just cheap, and are somehow able to continually find warm bodies. Consider whether you want to make a career of this.

 

[corus]

Most of the larger companies in the UK giwe graduates a pay-rise after a few months and then pay progression over the next few years to try and stop them from leaving. After that it's a little like a carrot tied to the nose of a donkey - prospects look good but you can never quite get there.

It's generally common practice in the UK to be offered an annual pay-rise in line with inflation, but ss you clearly work in a salt mine, or some horse dung collection facility, then dont expect much. It's hardly worth leaving the job though until you've had a few years experience.

corus

 

[KENAT]

Cuttie, back in Oct 99 I started on I think it was £17k, I'd been told I'd get a review and most likely a raise after 6 months. I actually got a raise to £17.5k at start of 2000 but then didn't really get my review and didn't get another raise till start 2001 when I was given raise to £18.5k. A few months after this I got a very large raise and from then on very competative raises every year.

Based on other places I interviewed with at the time most of them said some kind of review at 6 months with possible raise, some may have been at the year mark.

Either way, unless your company is in real survival mode not getting at least a modest pay raise doesn't sound right. And of course if your company is doing that bad then you need to be looking for a new position.

Your colleage who you seem to respect told you to ask for a raise, so you could talk to your boss and say something like 'I know you told me not to ask you for a raise but who should I speak to determine what I need to do to progress my career and compensation'.

Good luck.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[MadMango]

I've never worked outside the USA, and I think there may be a few cultural differences, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

An average annual raise is ~4%. If you are looking for more than this, I hope you get a good review. Is it common knowledge that your direct supervisor is leaving? If so, I think it would be appropriate for you to approach the next higher-up in the chain. I would raise the issue that with several others leaving your department you see a great opportunity to take-on added responsibility, and are willing to do so if compensated accordingly. If there are plans to replace the two bodies, they may have more work experience than you, but you'll have more company experience than them. That should be worth something.

 

[jmw]

There is usually some lump sum set aside in the budget for pay rises. How they arrive at this sum is to allocate it in some inverse proportion to the CEOs annual rise.

How it gets shared out depends on each department manager.
Some will get very little and others even less.

Now, your manager is leaving because for his own salary issues.

It is most likely that if they are to replace him then the new manager is going to have to be paid substantially more than the outgoing manager (or they won't find anyone to accept the job or if they do, he will be as much use as a chocolate teapot) and that is likely to come from the available pot of money which means even less to share around.

Probably no one higher up the tree will discuss money with you but will declare that it is an issue for the new man when he takes over.

He will have no idea who should be rewarded and who not. He may be aghast at how little money there is to share out, late, and will probably adopt a Solomon like policy of an equal % raise all round and declare his hands are tied, blame on the outgoing manager etc. etc. He will hesitate, as his first act on joining a new company, to go ask for more money to pay his staff.
He may have to look at staff reductions to pay his own salary (how many people have experienced departmental "re-structuring" following the appointment of a new manager...especially if they can blame everything on the outgoing incumbent?)

About the best you can hope for is that review notes will give the new man some clues.

I'd suggest getting your CV out there ASAP.
So you don't yet have an ideal amount of experience, so what? If you don't ask you don't get.

Think of it as interview experience and if someone does offer you a good alternative, you can choose to take it or not.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[ctopher]

This is my first permanent job

Maybe, but probably not.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[BillBirch]

I'd be very surprised if no provision is made for a raise after your first year -simply for motivation and as acknowledged that you are progressively delivering to the company. The first move should normally be made by your company. If the raise (or lack thereof), is unacceptable, I would offer a token objection just to show that you are not a push-over, but not make too big a deal of it. As a graduate, you will actually be costing the company for a few years through being supervised, mentored or perhaps being sent on courses.

My thirty year career has been in oil and gas / petrochem and a bit of mining. The pecking order of companies within these process industriesgoes like this - manufacturers, EPC Contractors and Operating Companies. The salary profiles follow the same order, often with quite large quantum jumps in between.

My own experience started like yours - but in manufacturing pressure vessels and heat exchangers. After two years of that (in hindsight, I should have waited another year or two), I joined an EPC contractor with a salary of over double my manufacturing salary. This was a different league.

Your, like my, stint in manufacturing gives you an opportunity to really know your product. As I recall in an earlier post, yours is metering?

Should you take the next step up to an EPC job, after learning your product, you now have the oppportunity to bring something to the table with input to specifications and evaluations. Metering skids are big ticket items and their design and selection have enormous implications to other disciplines, such as the size of an offshore plarform! The reward to you, apart from bigger money, is that, having learnt your product, you now have an opportunity to learn how everything fits together - what other disciplines need to interact, and gain experience in other aspects of E&I, that may appeal to you.

Finally, having gained multi-discipline project experience, will will become attractive to the operating companies. Although say, Shell recruit straight from university, those guys are groomed for management from day one, whereas they always have a need for experienced engineers to join their projects.

This sounds like a "history of the world" rave, but I think it helps to illustrate that, what may be of concern now is small bickies tomorrow. A case in point. Recently I earnt in two weeks more than I earnt in my entire first year!

 

[GregLocock]

My pay doubled (or just over) in the three years after university, for the same employer.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ScottyUK]

Cuttie,

Do I remember that you work in Oil & Gas? That's a rich industry and has a reputation for paying well. Although I'm not in O&G, pay-wise there are some parallels with the utilities. Based on utilities I would expect a recent graduate with a year's experience to be earning more than that, probably in the mid 20's. The biggest percentage rises you will ever get are usually in the first few years, either from a far-sighted employer who wants to hold on to the staff which it is investing time and effort in training, or by other employers who are looking to hijack their competitor's investment in training by recruiting their staff. In your position I'd be looking for jobs and going for interviews. You don't have to accept a job offer and you may find that you get a good offer out of it. Don't use a job offer as a negotiating tool with Personnel: a good personnel dept. will know what the competitors are offering and should be at least keeping pace with them. You shouldn't need to hold a gun to their heads just to maintain a competitive salary (although the gun idea has a certain appeal ).

Consider the present UK economic climate - some industries are going to be hit harder than others. In my opinion O&G and utilities are two of the safer ones to be in.



----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[Cutiee]

Hello again

Yes working in O&G industry, I’m working on a gas metering system at the moment; big boss just put me on a training course near Leeds (this will be my first business trip, so excited ), he said when I came back I should be able to teach others what I would learn, I will try my best.

And yes, the experience is priceless; I do feel I learned more in this one year working than the 4 years university study.

I started last year 1st of Nov, so I think if I do get offered a pay raise, it should be coming end of this month with my payslip?

Line manager (the one is leaving) gave me pre-appraisal form to fill in, it’s quite difficult, and I just don’t know what to put on there.

I don’t want to leave here, everyone is very nice to me, boss likes me too, plus I would like to get more experiences.

x

Cuttie

 

[KENAT]

Cuttie, yeah the money should be in your Nov 08 pay check if you get a raise at 1 year.

Of course you'd like to think they'd tell you a bit in advance. My currently employer though tells you your raise afer you've already been earning it a week or two, just before your first pay pack it with it in, which just seems ridiculous.

One thought, as you started so late in the year, are they going to try and get your pay raise on the typicaly "1st of year" schedule? This may not be too unreasonable but they should tell you as much.

This is effectively what my last place in the UK did, but they gave me a smallish raise after only 3 months at year end, they didn't make me wait the year +.

You definitely need to ask for some clarification on the issue, how forcefull you are in actually pushing for a raise is up to you. At the end of the day, you can vote with your feet.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[Ussuri]

I work for a oil and gas service company. I think the grads at my work start on around 23-24K with guaranteed pay rises for three years putting them on around 32K with three years experience. The company is a reasonable size at around 5000 employees.

I would think 20K is probably a little on the low side. I would say it is not unreasonable to expect a pay rise after the first year, because without one it is likely new starting graduates will be getting paid more than you.

Use you appraisal as a proactive tool, identify what you have learned during your year and how you have expanded your skills base so you can demonstrate you are not the same engineer as a year ago. Also identify where you need to focus on for improving yourself and set targets for the future. Discuss it with your line manager and agree the way forward.

 

[TurbineGen]

For me unfortunately the best way to get better pay is to get experience and then jump ship if not recognized. In four years I have almost doubled my salary.

The first company I worked for was a revolving door. The experience was great, but the working conditions and pay were less than acceptable. I asked about a raise after getting many positive compliments from customers, but recieved an explanation on why they couldn't pay me more. So I began looking elsewhere. The second company offered me a 40% increase. I jumped ship and went to the second company. That company had an excellent pay increase plan and they let you know when your raise would come, and how to get the most.

After a while I got really tired of living in the Northern U.S. and constant travel so I began looking into some of the companies I had done contract work for while I was field serviceman. One offered me a significant increase and the opportunity to live in a better part of the country. That's where I am now and quite satisfied with my job and salary.

Some companies recognize performance and reward you for it. If you deserve more and work for a company that does not recognize performance, get your experience and go elsewhere.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is broken, fix it. If it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.

 

[HamishMcTavish]

Cuttie,

You should be able to TELL your manager that you deserve a pay rise (if indeed you do) Tot up a list of tasks given and completed (time taken etc) Demonstrate your hard work and show that you add VALUE to the company. If they decide that it'll be "jam tomorrow" then you've at least got a good basis for your CV to tout for another job!

By the way:
1) Don't be shy about asking for a raise because your management will take advantage of that; and
2) NEVER think that asking questions is a bad thing.

Good luck HM

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam