Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

  • Congratulations waross on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

Do We Know what "Renewable Energy" means? 67

Status
Not open for further replies.

zdas04

Mechanical
Jun 25, 2002
10,274
0
0
US
Much is made these days about "renewable energy" almost always talking about (in declining order of importance to the narrative) wind, solar, hydro-electric, geothermal, solid biofuels, and liquid biofuels. What I cannot find is a definition that limits how renewable something has be be to be called "renewable".

For example, I have deployed thousands of PV solar panels on remote wellsites over the years. When I'm doing project economics I expect to replace 1/3 of the panels every year and 1/2 of the batteries every year. This is because birds and reptiles are incontinent and their waste on the warm surface tends to short out the electronics. Further, covering a panel with dust or sand reduces its effectiveness towards zero and the first sand storm sandblasts the surface to the point that the electronics can't tell night from day (and cleaning the panels shorts them out about as often as it doesn't). No matter what metric you use, Solar PV does not ever generate as much energy as went into the mining, raw material transport, fabrication, and finished product transport. The industrial units I've deployed return under 5% of the energy required to make them appear on site. Project economics reflect that and the economics often favor Solar PV over bringing in grid power, but the only part that is "renewable" is that fuel cost for operation is zero. The popular literature uses a 25-30 year life for solar panels. Fires and sand blasting experience at large solar arrays seem to make this number laughable if you actually take the panels out of the box.

Forbes Magazine had an article a while back that claimed that grid-scale wind power units get about 83% government grants, subsidies, and tax credits (i.e., a company desiring to install a $500,000 wind turbine would have $415,000 covered by federal programs, state programs would further reduce the cost in most states). Then the federal government has mandated a price that the utility must pay for any power generated beyond the company's need (which is retail price, not the wholesale price that they pay for other power). Expected actual power generation from a unit that size would be worth (both in sell back and in avoided power purchase) about $30k/year which is not enough to service the debt on a $500 k loan. In this case Forbes is using dollars as a surrogate for energy input and energy output, but that is usually a reasonable surrogate--bottom line is that without the government involvement wind energy would not pay for itself. Most "information" available on this topic is like Science Daily that uses nameplate hp, 24-hour/day, 366 days/year operation at 100% capacity and subsidized sales prices to say that the turbines pay for themselves in 5-8 months. This analysis assumes energy storage that has no energy cost (and that it exists, it doesn't). When you factor in back-up power supplies for calm days, and fuel needed for standby plants the 5-8 months becomes laughable, but that is the number that "researchers" in this field continue to use.

Geothermal (where is is a viable option) is likely significantly "renewable" in that you get more energy out of it then you put into it. New research is linking industrial-scale geothermal energy to significantly increased seismic activity (both frequency and severity), but it is renewable.

Hydro-electric represents a love-hate relationship with the environmental movements. The narrative around evil fossil-fuel shows hydro as a huge win (it represents about 6.8% of the U.S. electricity usage), but the land that is taken out of service, the changes to the eco system by changing fast moving rivers to slow moving lakes, and the absence of flooding in river bottoms is depleting soil. Dams silt up and require maintenance/repair. Still, hydro is renewable in that it provides many times the power required to deploy the technology.

Solid biofuels like wood chips and vegetable debris have serious delivery problems (and ash-removal problems and particulate matter pollution problems) that caused the Province of Ontario to have to derate their coal fired plants by half when they were converted to solid biofuels.

Liquid biofuels to date have primarily been oxygenators like ethanol. Adding 10% ethanol to gasoline (petrol) will reduce total fuel efficiency by about 13%. This means that a trip that would have taken 100 gallons of fuel will take about 113 gallons of fuel--101.7 gallons of gasoline and 11.3 gallons of ethanol. In other words it is significantly energy negative. Bio-diesel has about 77% of the specific energy of diesel and tends to gel, absorb water, and requires higher compression ratios. In general without government intervention, this is an idea who's time will never come.

That brings me to gaseous biofuels. Methane comes from anaerobic biological activity on organic waste. In a recent article I computed that contemporary methane sources are on the order of 5 TSCF/day (the world uses about 0.3 TSCF/day). The organisms on this planet generate so much organic waste that we don't even have to get a lot more effective at re-processing organic waste to supply the world's power needs forever--truly renewable and sustainable. The only hurdle is that the contemporary narrative has methane listed in the "evil fossil fuel" category and not in the "renewable" category. That is it. A small shift in the narrative and the world will turn the engineering community lose on this problem and very shortly we will have unlimited power for an unlimited number of future generations. There are already hundreds of small and medium sized dairy farms, chicken farms, pig farms, and feed lots that are harvesting the animal waste to generate heat and methane for power generation (you get methane from anaerobic digestion which requires a small power input and generates horrible smells, taking the last step in the process into an aerobic digester, which is exothermic, provides heat for the anaerobic process, and gets rid of the worst of the smells). Everyone with knowledge of this process knows that there are a number of things that could be done to improve yields and recover more of the biological energy, but with an EPA focused on "eliminating methane emissions", there is no incentive to commit the engineering effort required.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to change the narrative from "methane causes global warming" to "retail harvest of contemporary methane can be a big part of the solution"?

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

has part of the news that the ozone hole over Antarctica is shrinking, 30 years after the initial ban on CFCs. Now, that may just be coincidence, but others can read into it that man-made pollution did have a deleterious impact on the atmosphere, and the elimination of that pollution did have a healing effect.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
faq731-376 forum1529
 
I have reviewed the papers that lead to the Montreal Agreement and found them to be based on very much non-scalable "experiments". If you throw a rat in a drum of liquid saccharine, the rat will die. Most likely from drowning, but he'll still die. That does not prove that saccharine will kill people. Saccharine may very well kill people but the non-scalable experiments do not prove that it will. Same with the ozone layer work. Dumping enough 100% CFC into a container of 100% Ozone to double the pressure will result in significant depletion of the Ozone. The experiments proved that. They don't prove that dumping 0.000000001 ppm CFC into 2-8 ppm ozone that exists in the stratosphere will have any impact at all.

There is a measurable hole in the ozone. That hole is smaller today than it was 30 years ago. CFC use has been curtailed for 30 years. Three facts that may or may not be related in any way at all. No one will ever really know. If the hole starts getting larger again, the eviro-wackos will find another man-made chemical to vilify without removing the stigma from CFC's.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
rconner said:
It is an expected outcome of the effect of the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations. It matches with observations.

correlation <> causation. Period.

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.
 
SnarkySparky,
OK, examples of failed predictions are not germane, could you humor us with examples of environmental predictions that were reasonably close to actual outcomes? The hole in the ozone is one that frequently comes up, but controlinvoice says "correlation does not equal causation". Silent Spring has been shown to have been made up from whole cloth. None of Malthus' predictions have come to pass. I just can't come up with a single concrete prediction (i.e., if a specific action does not take place, a specific outcome will happen in a specific time period) that has ever come close. Could you help us out here?

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
FoxRox,
FoxRox said:
Warm air would otherwise be free to circulate via convection into the upper layers of the atmosphere and carried elsewhere.
Your idea might explain local temperatures but does not explain global warming (on Venus or Earth). You’re just talking about how energy moves around the system, not the balance of incoming and outgoing energy. If “greenhouse clouds” (may I call them that?) prevent warm air from moving to another part of the planet, whereas without them the warm air would move, then we are still talking about the same amount of energy in the system (i.e. planet’s atmosphere), just distributed differently. This could not explain global warming. Blocking outgoing radiation does.

So what you’re saying may be correct, in a local sense, but it is irrelevant (or inexplicable) in a global sense, which is the topic at hand.

However, to return to your original point, the statement “the Venus analogy is a bit misleading” is not true and zdas04 denying that the greenhouse effect has an impact on global temperatures is still ridiculous.

FoxRox said:
clouds are vastly more effective at preserving heat than any clear gas
That’s not always true. On Earth (I’m not sure how it translates to Venus), low cloud cover has a net result of cooling the planet (less incoming radiation) and high cloud cover has a net result of warming the planet (less outgoing radiation) (see here for an explanation). It’s not clouds that are “vastly more effective at preserving heat”, it’s the higher concentration of greenhouse gases.
 
Why is the side presenting facts and hypotheses being called the one with the religion? And as for predictions, the main thing predicted by global warming is that we will see a warming trend, which we have.
 
Has the discussion been dragged down so far that we've resorted to discussing talking points from THE FEDERALIST ?

Are Facebook memes next?

Disappointing...
 
canwesteng,
Could it be that the "facts" being presented are made up of manipulated data and computer models? Just wondering.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
I actually differ with controlnovice on the

""correlation <> causation. Period.""

Because eventually it is... It's all we humans have to drive reasoning.

hypothesis -> test -> refine hypothesis -> test .....

We unfortunately can't do that with MMGW..

But that is a digression.

Here is the first example from a google search... And guess what the topic is..


Now many say it got warm for some unknown reason. But how far to carry that line of reasoning. After all
the entire universe cannot be known. Can it be claimed that a Vogon farted in 1980 and this is the cause.
Seems awfully fishy to me that a known cause ( yes there is a greenhouse effect ) just happens to coincide with
the expected result.

Personally I believe it's solid science that greenhouse gasses are warming the planet. But I think it's less clear where
this will lead us, although my gut reaction tells me it will be on balance very bad due to the fact that we humans
have built up the planet based on a relatively constant climate pattern that will be upended, don't know how myself.
 
controlnovice
controlnovice said:
correlation <> causation. Period.
Yup. Also, correlation <> ~causation. The real question is how do you turn mere correlation into causation.

While there is no one true answer (ask any two epistemologists or philosophers of science and you’ll get two different answers), most would agree (I think) that consilience of evidence (see my post here at 11 Feb 16 03:21) that supports the theory and works against the null hypothesis (“it’s natural” – see my discussion here at 12 Feb 16 04:30 (with Panther140) or at 27 Oct 15 18:27 and 28 Oct 15 22:03 (with ornerynorsk)) and other competing theories (i.e. “it’s solar” – see my comment to Panther140 below) provides confidence to turn mere correlation into causation.

Panther140
Panther140 said:
put it in the microwave for 3 minutes on the High setting.
You’re trying to say (sarcastically) that increased solar energy is responsible for the warming, not greenhouse gases? You’re aware that solar activity has been declining since ~1970 while temperatures have increased? You’re aware that if solar activity was responsible for the warming we’d expect to see the stratosphere warm as well as the surface (in reality the stratosphere is cooling) and we’d expect the Southern Hemisphere to warm faster than the Northern Hemisphere (in reality we observe the exact opposite) and we’d expect to see days warming faster than nights (in reality we observe the exact opposite)?

Solar activity is of course the most important aspect in an absolute sense but the changes in solar activity are too weak and are working in the wrong direction and don’t align with the observed changes in climate to explain them.

Hey controlnovice, does ~correlation = ~causation?

canwesteng
canwesteng said:
Why is the side presenting facts and hypotheses being called the one with the religion?
You see…because…ahhh…hmmm…GALILEO! Because Galileo fought against the church and they are fighting against the science and they consider themselves Galileo 2.0, the science must be a religion! Don't you get it!

Serious answer – ideology. When the proposed solutions to a problem go against your ideology you either have to accept it or convince yourself that the solution and problem are wrong. Most choose, due to cognitive dissonance, the latter.

JNieman,
JNieman said:
Has the discussion been dragged down so far that we've resorted to discussing talking points from THE FEDERALIST ?
But don't you see, libertarian blogs are the last bastion of truth ever since NASA, NOAA, National Academy of Sciences, Royal Society, American Geophysical Union, American Institute of Physics and 197 national science academies/institutions "have degraded the concept of "science"" by joining the "Church of AGW"!
 
rconnor, I'm not saying solar energy output has increased. I'm saying that there are many other factors being changed. I think there are too many other factors changing with the data acquisition and processing methods ALONE for us to come to a conclusion.

Solar output =/= net energy input to the earth. You're thinking globally and steady-state. We have 2 hemispheres that are vastly different in their composition. The earth is not a uniform mass in a steady-state experiment (It tilts). Did you know that our orbit changes shape? Combine the axial tilt effects with Perihelion and Aphelion. Consider the temperature data acquisition procedure changes.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
Global warming, global cooling, so what. The fact is that dumping carbon into the air is going to change something, and maybe it is self correcting (how else did all the carbon get in the ground in the first place).

To me it seems that we keep predicting things, (and inflating those predictions), to come up with conclusions that some people wanted anyway.

The reality is what we call renewable seems to be short term replacement (what is short), by nature (?), use of something as an energy source.
The question to me is how much energy goes into the manufacture of the things we use to make use of this renewable energy. Is this of a real value, or would you be better off just using FFs?

The problem looks, from one perspective, that much of the renewable energy case is a mandate to create jobs and money for a few people, while the rest of us pay for it.

The accounting of energy used to make renewable energy available is not one of the numbers presented.

 
SnarkySparky,
Interesting paper on a paper. It seems like the sections that were copied had a lot of self-fulfilling prophecies and seriously missed predictions. For example, statements like:
“CO2 effects on climate may make full exploitation of coal resources undesirable,” the paper concludes. “An appropriate strategy may be to encourage energy conservation and develop alternative energy sources, while using fossil fuels as necessary during the next few decades.”
have led the current administration to implement largely illegal regulations on the coal industry that are killing the industry in favor of unreliable and wasteful "alternative energy sources". I say "largely illegal" because the explicit language in the Clean Air Act prohibits the EPA from classifying either CO2 or CH4 as pollutants to be controlled under the Clean Air Act. The EPA is using the Clean Air Act as justification to control CO2 and CH4 as the cornerstone of this administrations efforts to kill the coal industry.

A graph that portrays contemporary measured CO2 data that are significantly above the model output that was in the paper would indicate to me that the models in 1981 should have underpredicted warming from CO2 (if CO2 is in fact forcing and dominant) instead of significantly overpredicting warming.

The quote
It is shown that the anthropogenic carbon dioxide warming should emerge from the noise level of natural climate variability by the end of the century
simply didn't happen.

Claiming that the California drought is proof of the statement:
Potential effects on climate in the 21st century include the creation of drought-prone regions in North America and central Asia as part of a shifting of climate zones
is just nonsense. The California drought was caused by wrong-headed manipulation of water resources in the name of "environmentalism". Further, the quote
consequent worldwide rise in sea level
also has not happened.

In short, this "eerily accurate" paper is just more of the same, much like Nostradamus predicting Kennedy's assassination, use words that are vague enough and you can call them "accurate predictions".


David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
Well I disagree with your assertion that the temperature has not climbed out of the noise. Nearly everyone agrees that the climate has warmed. If I showed you the same graph for an entirely unrelated issue and asked you if you though something changed I bet you would point to the 1980 time frame. That temp rise that was predicted in 1980 has in fact happened. There has been a break of sorts in the rise but to me it does not look like it breaks the trend.
I also disagree with your assertion about wasteful alternative energy sources.


This one I am curious about.

" The California drought was caused by wrong-headed manipulation of water resources in the name of "environmentalism"."

Silly me I though it was about rainfall.

I think you would be more credible if you re considered some of your more outlandish positions.
The very same can certainly X10 be said of certain factions of the environmental movement.
 
I think the most humble position to take here is skepticism. Theories and concerns about potential risks are always welcome. Conclusions should be reserved for repeatable experiments.

I think that legislating any further on this would bring more risk of destruction and elitism to our civilization than the actual "change" in climate could.

I have felt no effects of this "unnatural climate change", but you better believe I have felt a huge impact from the legislation concerning it.

Don't get this confused with standard pollution control, which I understand and accept as a net benefit for society.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
" The California drought was caused by wrong-headed manipulation of water resources in the name of "environmentalism"."

This is just political BS at its "finest." How did "environmentalism" make our snow pack so thin? Why not simply blame global warming on "environmentalism" instead of denying physics?

If anything, we've not had sufficient "environmentalism," which would have forced the large cities and the Central Valley to take drastic measures to conserve water. And despite many years of drought, we've still not gotten anything in the regulation of water usage. You may not have noticed the drive on I-5 consists of rich GREEN fields interspersed with dead fields. This was not due to Congress, despite the signs that claim the contrary, but due completely to adhering to the antiquated water-rights handed down by the Spanish more than 2 centuries ago. Those that have them spray water like drunken sailors and have ZERO vested interest in conserving water and low-water farming techniques. Los Angeles is mostly covered with concrete or asphalt, so all its direct rainfall simply gets pi$$ed back into the ocean; whereas, if the environmentalists were really in power, we'd have mandatory catch basins and cisterns for every building and large lot, and we'd be recycling gray water like crazy, and everyone would have to replace their lawns with astro turf.



TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
faq731-376 forum1529
 
Two examples out of many. At a time when entire crop types (a friend's almond groves for example) were failing from a prohibition against irrigation (Almonds were seen as non-essential "luxury" crops) millions of gallons of pure water were being released to the ocean to protect a particular fish habitat. The danger to this fish was prospective, and no one could answer the question "if that fish is so delicate how did the species survive the last few hundred droughts?", the people in charge of the water supplies simply bowed to pressure from environmentalists and allowed the outflow to be maintained markedly higher than engineers recommended.

In the area around Bakersfield waste water from Oil & Gas operations has been used for irrigation for decades. When farmers suggested expanding this sensible practice of using water whose TDS and SAR were both acceptable for irrigation to other areas the environmental lobby lost their minds. Several law suits were filed and for about a year the farmers in Bakersfield were terrified that the insanity was going to cut them off from using this perfectly acceptable water.

Water management in a semi-arid region is a difficult undertaking. Every proposal to allocate the limited water to maximize the impact of the water was met with some flavor of "environmentalist" protesting, sabotaging, and filing law suits. Divert water away from a swamp and the Audobon Society files suit in behalf of migratory birds. Slow the flow of a river that has historically dried up in the summer and PETA sues to protect wild deer. Find a perfectly acceptable water source and Greenpeace sues to keep from "spewing industrial waste on our food supply". The drought was a bad one, but far from unprecedented and made much worse by environmentalism.

As to the assertion that the "temperature has climbed out of the noise" it simply hasn't. If you look at data without the recent "restatements" you see that temperature has not risen in this century and to satisfy the assertion that it has risen out of the noise it would have to be nearly 2 degrees warmer today than the data seems to indicate even after all of the unpublished "adjustments", all of which are upwards.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
I wonder if we're overthinking this. What about our assumption that "the atmosphere is a heat sink" that we start with in every Thermodynamics, Heat and Mass Transfer, and HVAC text? We have many more mechanical systems that dump excess heat into "the atmosphere" or "the surroundings" in use than there were 60-70 years ago. Perhaps the temperature of the atmosphere has increased a bit because we're just throwing more heat at it?
 
With ALL due respect to ALL the given information surrendered in this thread... I cannot begin to associate with the discussion of IR radiation, greenhouse effect, mass flow, convection, conduction, solar fluxes, albedo, AU/Astronomical Units, anthropogenia, stigma from CFC's, e-NGO’s, NCO’s & NCOIC’s, SO2, CO2, CH4, bolide impact, spectral transmission and absorption, quasi-stable energy, Princess Peach reptilian quests, caloric values, photovoltaics, carbon cycles, IC engines, geothermal primordial radioactive decay or CO2E/kWh ratios, correlations and causations. Please forgive me for EVERYthing that I have left out.

I respect the opinions in the respect that we all have opinions. Can we prove any of these opinions?

Some information on this thread is presented as facts. What are these “facts” based on? Can we prove these facts?

Do we consider that information by any department, organization, union, institute, academy, society, politician, party, church or religion, published in any magazine, abstract, paper or internet website as unquestionable fact? Generally speaking, there is equally opposing “reputable” sources on all sides… in every individual’s opinion, that is.

Regardless of how much anything has been (allegedly) extensively studied, researched, or tested outside of their own or a neighbor’s garage, basement, dungeon, backyard or kitchen, has anyone here actually applied any of the alleged findings of these physical properties or forces to a full scale arena?

Wang, Liang, the Mann-Kindell Test, universitytoday.com, Richard Dawkins, Kenneth Watt, Gaylord Nelson, Ben Stein, thefederalist.com, Alfred Neuman, Malthus' predictions, Clement, Darwin, Lauer, Archie Bunker, Dressler, Orwell, Sherwood, Arrhenius, Galileo… they all have their own biased agenda(s), perspectives and desires as do each one of us. As has been “proven” – largely by way of what all venues of media allows to be revealed to us – in the past, while, what we individually consider facts, by all aforementioned, equally, there has been just as much information presented to the public, since what any of us understand to be the beginning of time, that has been “proven” to be false, corrupt, a hoax, etc.

Who, here, has been to Venus? Mercury? Antarctica (I suppose a few)?

Unless anybody contributing to this thread has been able to apply ANY of the alleged findings of these physical properties or forces to a full scale arena, then NONE of our input is anymore absolute than opinion.

Flat earth, Human evolution, Man on the moon, GW, Chem trails, 9/11, Black budget, Mockingbird, Roswell, Vaccinations, Nayirah, Trilateral, Northwoods, Iran-Contra, Ishtar Leporidae, Gulf of Tonkin, Ajax, Snow White, Gladio, Church Committee, MH370, NWO, Bilderberg, Illuminati, Black Sox, Silkwood, Manhattan, Bohemian Grove, Paperclip, Dreyfus, Santa, Watergate, Federal Reserve, Big Brother, Iron Mountain, MK-Ultra, UFO’s, Flouride, Mercury Fillings, COINTELPRO, Goldman-Sachs, The Business Plot… the list goes on… with few exceptions, none of us can prove or disprove any of this!

To stay on topic, it takes renewable energy to even visit this post… refocus… then return to work.

BUT! It IS good dialogue, “(t)aint” it?

Thank you... carry on...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top