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Do We Know what "Renewable Energy" means? 67

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zdas04

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Jun 25, 2002
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Much is made these days about "renewable energy" almost always talking about (in declining order of importance to the narrative) wind, solar, hydro-electric, geothermal, solid biofuels, and liquid biofuels. What I cannot find is a definition that limits how renewable something has be be to be called "renewable".

For example, I have deployed thousands of PV solar panels on remote wellsites over the years. When I'm doing project economics I expect to replace 1/3 of the panels every year and 1/2 of the batteries every year. This is because birds and reptiles are incontinent and their waste on the warm surface tends to short out the electronics. Further, covering a panel with dust or sand reduces its effectiveness towards zero and the first sand storm sandblasts the surface to the point that the electronics can't tell night from day (and cleaning the panels shorts them out about as often as it doesn't). No matter what metric you use, Solar PV does not ever generate as much energy as went into the mining, raw material transport, fabrication, and finished product transport. The industrial units I've deployed return under 5% of the energy required to make them appear on site. Project economics reflect that and the economics often favor Solar PV over bringing in grid power, but the only part that is "renewable" is that fuel cost for operation is zero. The popular literature uses a 25-30 year life for solar panels. Fires and sand blasting experience at large solar arrays seem to make this number laughable if you actually take the panels out of the box.

Forbes Magazine had an article a while back that claimed that grid-scale wind power units get about 83% government grants, subsidies, and tax credits (i.e., a company desiring to install a $500,000 wind turbine would have $415,000 covered by federal programs, state programs would further reduce the cost in most states). Then the federal government has mandated a price that the utility must pay for any power generated beyond the company's need (which is retail price, not the wholesale price that they pay for other power). Expected actual power generation from a unit that size would be worth (both in sell back and in avoided power purchase) about $30k/year which is not enough to service the debt on a $500 k loan. In this case Forbes is using dollars as a surrogate for energy input and energy output, but that is usually a reasonable surrogate--bottom line is that without the government involvement wind energy would not pay for itself. Most "information" available on this topic is like Science Daily that uses nameplate hp, 24-hour/day, 366 days/year operation at 100% capacity and subsidized sales prices to say that the turbines pay for themselves in 5-8 months. This analysis assumes energy storage that has no energy cost (and that it exists, it doesn't). When you factor in back-up power supplies for calm days, and fuel needed for standby plants the 5-8 months becomes laughable, but that is the number that "researchers" in this field continue to use.

Geothermal (where is is a viable option) is likely significantly "renewable" in that you get more energy out of it then you put into it. New research is linking industrial-scale geothermal energy to significantly increased seismic activity (both frequency and severity), but it is renewable.

Hydro-electric represents a love-hate relationship with the environmental movements. The narrative around evil fossil-fuel shows hydro as a huge win (it represents about 6.8% of the U.S. electricity usage), but the land that is taken out of service, the changes to the eco system by changing fast moving rivers to slow moving lakes, and the absence of flooding in river bottoms is depleting soil. Dams silt up and require maintenance/repair. Still, hydro is renewable in that it provides many times the power required to deploy the technology.

Solid biofuels like wood chips and vegetable debris have serious delivery problems (and ash-removal problems and particulate matter pollution problems) that caused the Province of Ontario to have to derate their coal fired plants by half when they were converted to solid biofuels.

Liquid biofuels to date have primarily been oxygenators like ethanol. Adding 10% ethanol to gasoline (petrol) will reduce total fuel efficiency by about 13%. This means that a trip that would have taken 100 gallons of fuel will take about 113 gallons of fuel--101.7 gallons of gasoline and 11.3 gallons of ethanol. In other words it is significantly energy negative. Bio-diesel has about 77% of the specific energy of diesel and tends to gel, absorb water, and requires higher compression ratios. In general without government intervention, this is an idea who's time will never come.

That brings me to gaseous biofuels. Methane comes from anaerobic biological activity on organic waste. In a recent article I computed that contemporary methane sources are on the order of 5 TSCF/day (the world uses about 0.3 TSCF/day). The organisms on this planet generate so much organic waste that we don't even have to get a lot more effective at re-processing organic waste to supply the world's power needs forever--truly renewable and sustainable. The only hurdle is that the contemporary narrative has methane listed in the "evil fossil fuel" category and not in the "renewable" category. That is it. A small shift in the narrative and the world will turn the engineering community lose on this problem and very shortly we will have unlimited power for an unlimited number of future generations. There are already hundreds of small and medium sized dairy farms, chicken farms, pig farms, and feed lots that are harvesting the animal waste to generate heat and methane for power generation (you get methane from anaerobic digestion which requires a small power input and generates horrible smells, taking the last step in the process into an aerobic digester, which is exothermic, provides heat for the anaerobic process, and gets rid of the worst of the smells). Everyone with knowledge of this process knows that there are a number of things that could be done to improve yields and recover more of the biological energy, but with an EPA focused on "eliminating methane emissions", there is no incentive to commit the engineering effort required.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to change the narrative from "methane causes global warming" to "retail harvest of contemporary methane can be a big part of the solution"?

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
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Much of that heat that is being thrown is from HVAC, or said another way, we could be causing atmosphere warming because we are using more air cooling equipment to keep us cool in the hot summer.

Simple solution; Make people do without HVAC. Why has that not been proposed?

 
cranky - of course it has been proposed. that is the (alleged) purpose of the carbon tax. make the price of energy so expensive we cant afford to run our air conditioning, especially the AC in the Suburban.
 
"Two examples out of many. At a time when entire crop types (a friend's almond groves for example) were failing from a prohibition against irrigation (Almonds were seen as non-essential "luxury" crops) millions of gallons of pure water were being released to the ocean to protect a particular fish habitat. The danger to this fish was prospective, and no one could answer the question "if that fish is so delicate how did the species survive the last few hundred droughts?", the people in charge of the water supplies simply bowed to pressure from environmentalists and allowed the outflow to be maintained markedly higher than engineers recommended. "

Again, that's political malarkey. There are plenty of almond groves that are still lush and green, even in the pit of the drought, so they obviously had no problems getting water in the same valley that your friends's field failed. You and your friend seem to forget that the net result of watering all those fields is runoff that's heavily contaminated with wastes and heavy metals, which didn't exist for the delta darts prior to the last century. The claim is that we should run the delta dry to keep all your friends' farms watered, but that would mean any shipping that can currently go from the San Francisco Bay to Sacramento and Stockton would have to be stop, as would the actual farming that occurs in the delta itself. Additionally, there are downstream users of delta water in the Bay Area, who would likewise suffer if the water supply were to dry up. The state made an economic trade-off in not revoking all the grandfathered water rights and in not messing up the delta economy itself. Your friend is a casualty of an economic trade off.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
faq731-376 forum1529
 
Correlation <> Causation

I can throw up a chart copied from the internet as good as anybody. Disprove it...
piratesarecool4_zmevaf.gif


Answer to the Global Cooling Warming...wait...what is it today?

Oh...that's right... Climate Change Alarmists: We need more Pirates! Maybe Somalia can help....

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.
 
Need HVAC to control the temperature inside of a dyno cell while running engines through EMI cert tests.
HVAC decidedly warms the atmosphere.
Proof that EPA regulations are destroying the environment.




"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
Correlation without theory is nonsense; your graph has the same problem as the actual climate in explaining the so-called "pause."

"Need HVAC to control the temperature inside of a dyno cell while running engines through EMI cert tests.
HVAC decidedly warms the atmosphere.
Proof that EPA regulations are destroying the environment. "

So, you've proven that it is AGW by that argument.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
faq731-376 forum1529
 
crank108 said:
Much of that heat that is being thrown is from HVAC
Panther140 said:
HVAC decidedly warms the atmosphere.
Firstly, HVAC doesn’t create much heat (or turned chemical or other forms of stored energy into heat), it moves it from inside the building to the outside. This is still, more or less, the same amount of heat energy in the Earth’s atmosphere. So, right away, HVAC does not decidedly warm the atmosphere.

Secondly, waste heat from human activities (that release heat energy otherwise stored in a chemical or other form) are absolutely nothing compared to the amount of energy the planet is accruing due to the greenhouse effect. The forcing of waste heat from humans is +0.028 W/m^2 (Flanner 2009) whereas the greenhouse forcing is +2.9 W/m^2 (IPCC).

To put this another way, the planet is accuring ~2.5x10^14 J/s (source , 2). That’s equivalent to humans setting off 59,751 tons of dynamite every second (assuming 4.184x10^9 J/ton). So, no, waste heat is not significantly impacting the amount of energy in the atmosphere. But the greenhouse effect sure is.

controlnoive said:
Correlation <> Causation. I can throw up a chart copied from the internet as good as anybody. Disprove it...
You know better. And I already told you the answer. But maybe this time you’ll bother reading what I said (I’m not banking on it though).

To go from mere correlation to causation you need the following:
[ul][li]A theory that provides a physical mechanism, that agrees with known physics, (greenhouse effect) and makes predictions (see here at 11 Feb 16 03:21)[/li]
[li]The various predictions align with past observations (yes and yes) as well as match future projections (yes), creating a consilience of evidence.[/li]
[li]The theory has stronger explanatory power than the null hypothesis (yes – see the two references I already gave to you)[/li]
[li]The theory has stronger explanatory power than competing hypothesis (yes – solar? see my comment to Panther140 – geothermal flux? See here at 16 27 Aug 14 12:48 – cloud cover? See my comment here at 28 Jan 15 16:58 – land use changes? See my discussion with beej67 here at 8 Oct 15 19:35, 4 Nov 15 06:37, 10 Nov 15 21:42)[/li]
[li]If you have all those, then you have confidence that you have a causal theory that can explain the observations.[/li][/ul]

The anthropogenic climate change theory has all of those, your “joke” doesn’t. To think that the two are at all equivalent demonstrates just how little you know about the subject. Of course that’s never stopped people from having strong opinions on the subject, just look at this thread.
 
rconnor
If you take heat energy from inside a building and move it to the outside... How is the atmosphere immune from being warmed by it?

by the way, the EGTs on my car are about 1400 degrees.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
The heat came from the atmosphere, conducted into your building, and then AC moves it back into the atmosphere. Rinse and repeat. Unless you are heating your building while running the AC there is no new energy added, other than whatever it takes to run the compressors and pumps for the AC.
 
Panther140 said:
I think the most humble position to take here is skepticism.
Or maybe the most humble position is not to assume that an entire field of experts, nearly every academic institution and major journal are incompetent and, instead, accept they might know better than you...especially when you think transferring heat, that came from the outside, back outside will warm the planet...
 
When all else fails, a call to experts is your last resort? I wish I felt that "nearly every academic institution" (actually it is a small percentage), "[every] major journal" and "an entire field of experts" (that is a real stretch) were simply incompetent and not venal. Problem is that there is simply too much money on the table and the only way to access it is to toe the party line. Were you to remove government funding from this field it would dry up like croplands aren't.

Sneering at the idea that some percentage of the concentrated heat at HVAC heat exchangers has a different impact on the the environment than the diffuse energy that contributed to it (even if you exclude the idea that most of that exhausted heat comes from lighting, human waste heat, industrial processes, none of which have recently come from the sun) is beneath contempt.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
rconnor said:
entire field of experts

Not quite (National Review):
In an analysis of 12,000 abstracts, he found “a 97% consensus among papers taking a position on the cause of global warming in the peer-reviewed literature that humans are responsible.” “Among papers taking a position” is a significant qualifier: Only 34 percent of the papers Cook examined expressed any opinion about anthropogenic climate change at all. Since 33 percent appeared to endorse anthropogenic climate change, he divided 33 by 34 and — voilà — 97 percent! When David Legates, a University of Delaware professor who formerly headed the university’s Center for Climatic Research, recreated Cook’s study, he found that “only 41 papers — 0.3 percent of all 11,944 abstracts or 1.0 percent of the 4,014 expressing an opinion, and not 97.1 percent,” endorsed what Cook claimed. Several scientists whose papers were included in Cook’s initial sample also protested that they had been misinterpreted. “Significant questions about anthropogenic influences on climate remain,” Legates concluded.

Just another religion. Can't prove a negative.


______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.
 
Does biased funding skew research in a preferred direction, one that supports an agency mission, policy or paradigm?

how many of those 41 papers endorsing the hypothesis that AGW causes climate change were actually peer reviewed by somebody that was not receiving a federal research grant? That should be a readily available and pertinent fact shouldn't it?

Apparently there is research going on to "prove" this fairly evident truth.

 
Most of the exhausted heat most definitely doesn't come from people or lighting - not to mention people would be releasing the heat anyway. In some cases industrial processes would be the major cause of heat to be cooled but the majority is obviously residential/industrial applications, where you are just cooling heat that came the outdoors.
 
"actually peer reviewed by somebody that was not receiving a federal research grant"

Why is that important? The peer review process is not public, and not available to government funders, so there is neither penalty nor motive to skew a review. We routinely get grilled by SETAs funded by the government reviewing our Government funded work.

If anything, the bias is in the opposite direction, since the SETAs are trying to show that they're the right experts; if the process were truly that venal, then there's motive to savage everyone else's theories in favor of one's own, since there's always competition for dollars and venal scientists have zero motive to share the riches with competing scientists. You cannot argue venality and then claim they're all conspiring to help each other.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
faq731-376 forum1529
 
SnarkySparky,
You've got 18 posts in 9 years here so you probably need some newby slack, but please understand that to paraphrase Men In Black "we deniers do not have a sense of humor that we are aware of". I was as serious as I could be. The amount of money on the table on the "warming" side is big enough to tempt Martin Luther King to join the KKK. Not just government money (although that is staggeringly huge), but the e-NGO's are simply tripping over stacks of donations. Take out the hysteria and much of those donations dry up. That is what makes 2015 "the warmest year on record" even though it was considerably cooler than a couple of years in the 1930's, the e-NGO's need the hysteria in order to stay relevant.

Too many people have too much at stake to ever give up without the kind of fight that rconnor continues to put up. I have no idea if he is working this hard out of a consuming desire to convert the world to his point of view or if he has (or hopes for) a piece of that pie--there just isn't any way to transport pigs without getting some mud on your pants.

I often hear that I'm obviously a paid shill for "Big Oil" to take the positions that I take. I'm not, but my saying it will not be convincing, I don't have a peer-reviewed reference to "prove" it. I often get paid by the American Petroleum Institute (API) to participate in the industry response to environmental regulations, but they don't pay (or encourage) me to spend time in these conversations, it is all unpaid. I do it because my work with the API has given me insight into the workings of the e-NGO's and other environmental lobbyists and I've gotten glimpses of their end game and it terrifies me. Anything I can do to foil their goals (like, for example, convincing a single engineer that AGW is a hoax invented for subtle goals that are not in the interest of freedom and liberty) then I'm happy to invest available time.

IRStuff,
Are you really that naive? I have been signed up as a peer reviewer with several journals. It is anonymous, right? I asked one of them why I never get papers to review and her response was "we read your engineering.com article on climate change, you understand ...". The editors pick the reviewers, and the editors salaries are based on circulation. Someone who works to tone down the hysteria reduces circulation and doesn't get in the door.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
If you think "federal grant" money is any more persuasive than private industry money, you're deliberately blinding yourself.

If you think there is more money in "proving" climate change is happening, than in trying to prove it isn't - you're deliberately blinding yourself.

If one side was so immensely more persuasive, we wouldn't be in this embarrassing stalemate preventing any progress in mitigating the trend or in learning to adapt.
 
I don't question the honesty of zdas04's belief in what he says. He's not a "paid shill", which to my mind means a person who is paid to say something on behalf of his benefactor that he himself does not believe.

I do question his objectivity on this subject. He has a bias that has him denying fundamental physics when it inconveniently points in the wrong direction. It also has him strangely pretending that there is debate about settled issues such as the origin of the increased atmospheric CO2- a point which a sensible debater would concede because a) it is amply proven and b) it really doesn't matter to his primary point, which is simply that the excess CO2 is too little to matter anyway.

Does the industry that employs him contribute to his bias? Certainly- but he's not being dishonest to anyone other than himself.
 
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