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Do We Know what "Renewable Energy" means? 67

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zdas04

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Jun 25, 2002
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Much is made these days about "renewable energy" almost always talking about (in declining order of importance to the narrative) wind, solar, hydro-electric, geothermal, solid biofuels, and liquid biofuels. What I cannot find is a definition that limits how renewable something has be be to be called "renewable".

For example, I have deployed thousands of PV solar panels on remote wellsites over the years. When I'm doing project economics I expect to replace 1/3 of the panels every year and 1/2 of the batteries every year. This is because birds and reptiles are incontinent and their waste on the warm surface tends to short out the electronics. Further, covering a panel with dust or sand reduces its effectiveness towards zero and the first sand storm sandblasts the surface to the point that the electronics can't tell night from day (and cleaning the panels shorts them out about as often as it doesn't). No matter what metric you use, Solar PV does not ever generate as much energy as went into the mining, raw material transport, fabrication, and finished product transport. The industrial units I've deployed return under 5% of the energy required to make them appear on site. Project economics reflect that and the economics often favor Solar PV over bringing in grid power, but the only part that is "renewable" is that fuel cost for operation is zero. The popular literature uses a 25-30 year life for solar panels. Fires and sand blasting experience at large solar arrays seem to make this number laughable if you actually take the panels out of the box.

Forbes Magazine had an article a while back that claimed that grid-scale wind power units get about 83% government grants, subsidies, and tax credits (i.e., a company desiring to install a $500,000 wind turbine would have $415,000 covered by federal programs, state programs would further reduce the cost in most states). Then the federal government has mandated a price that the utility must pay for any power generated beyond the company's need (which is retail price, not the wholesale price that they pay for other power). Expected actual power generation from a unit that size would be worth (both in sell back and in avoided power purchase) about $30k/year which is not enough to service the debt on a $500 k loan. In this case Forbes is using dollars as a surrogate for energy input and energy output, but that is usually a reasonable surrogate--bottom line is that without the government involvement wind energy would not pay for itself. Most "information" available on this topic is like Science Daily that uses nameplate hp, 24-hour/day, 366 days/year operation at 100% capacity and subsidized sales prices to say that the turbines pay for themselves in 5-8 months. This analysis assumes energy storage that has no energy cost (and that it exists, it doesn't). When you factor in back-up power supplies for calm days, and fuel needed for standby plants the 5-8 months becomes laughable, but that is the number that "researchers" in this field continue to use.

Geothermal (where is is a viable option) is likely significantly "renewable" in that you get more energy out of it then you put into it. New research is linking industrial-scale geothermal energy to significantly increased seismic activity (both frequency and severity), but it is renewable.

Hydro-electric represents a love-hate relationship with the environmental movements. The narrative around evil fossil-fuel shows hydro as a huge win (it represents about 6.8% of the U.S. electricity usage), but the land that is taken out of service, the changes to the eco system by changing fast moving rivers to slow moving lakes, and the absence of flooding in river bottoms is depleting soil. Dams silt up and require maintenance/repair. Still, hydro is renewable in that it provides many times the power required to deploy the technology.

Solid biofuels like wood chips and vegetable debris have serious delivery problems (and ash-removal problems and particulate matter pollution problems) that caused the Province of Ontario to have to derate their coal fired plants by half when they were converted to solid biofuels.

Liquid biofuels to date have primarily been oxygenators like ethanol. Adding 10% ethanol to gasoline (petrol) will reduce total fuel efficiency by about 13%. This means that a trip that would have taken 100 gallons of fuel will take about 113 gallons of fuel--101.7 gallons of gasoline and 11.3 gallons of ethanol. In other words it is significantly energy negative. Bio-diesel has about 77% of the specific energy of diesel and tends to gel, absorb water, and requires higher compression ratios. In general without government intervention, this is an idea who's time will never come.

That brings me to gaseous biofuels. Methane comes from anaerobic biological activity on organic waste. In a recent article I computed that contemporary methane sources are on the order of 5 TSCF/day (the world uses about 0.3 TSCF/day). The organisms on this planet generate so much organic waste that we don't even have to get a lot more effective at re-processing organic waste to supply the world's power needs forever--truly renewable and sustainable. The only hurdle is that the contemporary narrative has methane listed in the "evil fossil fuel" category and not in the "renewable" category. That is it. A small shift in the narrative and the world will turn the engineering community lose on this problem and very shortly we will have unlimited power for an unlimited number of future generations. There are already hundreds of small and medium sized dairy farms, chicken farms, pig farms, and feed lots that are harvesting the animal waste to generate heat and methane for power generation (you get methane from anaerobic digestion which requires a small power input and generates horrible smells, taking the last step in the process into an aerobic digester, which is exothermic, provides heat for the anaerobic process, and gets rid of the worst of the smells). Everyone with knowledge of this process knows that there are a number of things that could be done to improve yields and recover more of the biological energy, but with an EPA focused on "eliminating methane emissions", there is no incentive to commit the engineering effort required.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to change the narrative from "methane causes global warming" to "retail harvest of contemporary methane can be a big part of the solution"?

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
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Panther140 said:
In essence, you are removing heat and air from the atmosphere when you build a house. Then you are adding only the heat back into the atmosphere. That means you concentrate earth's overall atmospheric heat content into a smaller amount of air.

....WHAT?

All you did was DISPLACE or MOVE air/heat.

I can't wait to hear your explanation about the changing volume of air when you realize that trees grow from seeds into might giants... we should start "removing" forests so we can regain our valuable atmospheric volume!
 
HVAC does heat the planet because it requires energy from another source, usually electric. To make that electric available it needs to come from somewhere (even on windless nights).

I just don't see how a carbon tax is going to reduce usage of HVAC, (Headline of a new government program so poor children can afford HVAC in their homes), and in fact will only increase the amount of carbon consumed. People who have government help have less of an incentive to reduce their consumption.

The carbon tax just unfairly hits the poor.

The best solution is to come up with better ideas, and I'm just not seeing much of it here.
 
I see a lot things being said here that any respectable engineer should know are grossly incorrect.
Mostly they are so wrong it is senseless to debate the points.
Surely you guys are just baiting right ??


"Formal education is a weapon, and essential for advancing knowledge beyond the obvious" - Me

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand may be of less worth the humble reasoning of a single individual on rare occasions, but it is very unwise to forge against consensus without reason. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

There Galileo I fixed it for ya.
 
JNieman (Aerospace) 13 Jul 16 19:46
"....WHAT?

All you did was DISPLACE or MOVE air/heat.

I can't wait to hear your explanation about the changing volume of air when you realize that trees grow from seeds into might giants... we should start "removing" forests so we can regain our valuable atmospheric volume! "



No you didn't displace air/heat. You displaced heat and heat alone. That's the entire point.


In essence, you are removing heat and air from the atmosphere when you build a house. Then you are adding only the heat back into the atmosphere. That means you concentrate earth's overall atmospheric heat content into a smaller amount of air. Notice that I said CONCENTRATE, and not ADD!!!

Go into a room that has a steady temperature of 300 Kelvin inside. Then bring in a refrigerator that contains 25% of the volume of total air within the room.

Turn the fridge on to bring its internal air temp down to 0 Kelvin.

You think the room around that refrigerator will stay the same temperature as it was before? You now have 75% of the ambient air containing the the same amount of heat that used to be distributed throughout 100% of the air in the room.

You still have 100% of the original heat being contained in only a portion of that air. This is an incredibly basic concept. I think you are over-thinking it.



"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 

mass of atmosphere: 5.1 x 10^18 kg

mass of air in a 4000 sq.ft. house * 7 billion/4.5 : 2.3*10^12 kg

So, if every family on Earth built a 4000 sq. ft. house, the change in volume would be 0.5 ppm

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
faq731-376 forum1529
 
I think I have some perfect renewable energy sources;

Harness the heat from all the tempers flaring in this (and other similar) posts.

Harness the pressure increases from all the ego inflation.

Harness the cooling potential from all the cold disdain, sarcasm, disgust, etc. being shown.

Harness the kinetic energy from all the mud slinging, finger pointing, hand raising, barb throwing.

If one tenth of this energy could be harnessed, there would be no need for carbon based fuels (or any fuels for that matter).
 
Unfortunately, this is where Engineering is going (in the next 5 years)

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 
I'm the obvious winner about the AC pissing match. Its better to just stand down..

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
We should all agree it takes energy to move energy. And it takes energy to move mass.

The question is how to reduce the amount of energy used, or where that energy comes from.

Instead of thinking about the box, can anyone think outside the box?
 
cranky108,

It seems like that was at least somewhat the original intention of this thread. Whether you're a believer, skeptic, denier, etc... one thing is certain: We're fed a consistent bill of goods that all carbon based fuels are bad - to the point where it's becoming ingrained in our culture. Schools teach it to young children. Nearly all mainstream news outlets offer it as fact. The majority of people who accept it do so without any understanding of the underlying science and other issues discussed herein. Thus, the issue is stuck "inside the box".

The burning of methane that would otherwise be vented directly to atmosphere is both renewable and GHG negative, but how many people do you think would believe that at this point? As soon as you mention "natural gas" and "burning", most people will default to a negative and dismissive viewpoint. Not the thoughtful individuals of Eng-Tips, of course, but the majority of the brainwashed population. Methane collection could turn out to be the salvation of humanity's energy needs and benefit the planet. It may not be likely, but neither is wind and solar energy solving all of our problems. The point is it's outside the prevailing metaphorical box. A rare thing.
 
I agree methane can be renewable. Likely it may require a new term if it is Not renewable, but intercepted on it's way into the air.

But if you accept methane, or natural gas can be renewable, then that might be a starting point to build upon.
However, if you accept that not enough natural gas can be produced, developed, or delivered, or that natural gas is not a good fuel source for some applications, then we need to find other fuels, or options.

Over the complaints of the negative impacts of wood as a fuel, it is renewable. But I have heard little discussion of improving the negative impacts.

I also hear of using alga, or seaweed as a fuel source but little is being said. Maybe more study is needed.

What we hear mostly as renewable is wind and solar panels, but very little of solar heating, or other disfavored sources.

 
FoxRox better watch yourself!! What we clearly need is a draconian batch of laws with cruel and unusual punishment and no trial for offenders.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
Cranky108,
This month's Mechanical Engineering (ASME's member rag) has an article that says that the Chinese are deploying 8 million small scale (the article wasn't specific, but it sounded like they were around 3 kW) anaerobic digesters this year. UC Davis has a 12 MW plant powered entirely by on-campus food waste (and landscape clippings). The article mentions several medium-scale (around 1 MW) projects in operation. 70 percent of the people in India do not have access to modern plumbing and uncontained human waste has led to recurring epidemics of typhus and dysentery, several researchers are working on projects to convert this dispersed waste stream into electricity.

The average home in the U.S. uses about 11 MWh/year of power, that is a load that could be satisfied with a digester providing fuel for a 2 kW genset (Honda makes one you can buy for $600 at Walmart) with enough methane left over to allow a compressor to store gas for cooking. A home could use one of these small units that the Chinese are deploying for under $3k using human waste, food waste, and yard clippings could supply all of a family's non-transportation energy needs. I have a swamp cooler so my winter/summer electric bill is pretty consistent at around $60/month. Gas is about $65/month (average winter/summer, the big load seems to be hot water) so I could be energy independent for non-transportation energy with the system fully paid off in 2 years, but there are no tax credits for implementing truly renewable energy with good economics, the government only wants to encourage wind and solar.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
it sounds fantastic ... maybe too fantastic ? all (even most) home energy from household waste.

if true, and if it'd pay-off in a couple of years, why wait for a tax credit ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
 
With 8 million units going being installed in China, I'm betting that they are going to find some bugs that need to be worked out? Five years from now I expect this technology to reach a point where it really is ready for prime time, I'll look at it then. Making compression and storage bulletproof before too many people burn their families down is a big one.

I really did not intend to make this look like a panacea, it isn't. It does look like a viable path beyond "the end of fossil fuel" whenever that happens (and it will). If the Church of AGW believes that they are right, then they should be howling for acceleration of the deployment of this technology instead of making me inventory pneumatic controllers on gas wells that vent 0.002 SCF/hour of methane into the atmosphere. Something on the order of 2000 times as much methane and CO2 is put into the atmosphere every year from decomposition of biological activities as industry emits. Capturing a very small percentage of that number would reduce the so called "greenhouse gases" by much more than all the Cap and Trade ever proposed. But it looks to me like the Church of AGW is more about punishing industry than fixing anything.

Between "dry geothermal" and waste management, the future (without grid-scale wind or solar, and without net metering) looks pretty damn bright to me. I see myself (and virtually every competent engineer I've ever worked with) as the ultimate environmentalist since we dearly hate to see anything discarded until we've extracted every bit of value (in all forms) that we can get. Combined-cycle power plants reach efficiency levels 3 times conventional plants because engineers thought about how to keep from throwing 78% of their energy input up the smoke stack. That technology met with a lot of resistance in the early days and now it is widely accepted. It came about from engineers hating wastefulness. The people that embrace the title "environmentalist" tend to just hate humanity.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
It's hard to take you seriously, and to believe there's objectivity in your research, when you constantly repeat "Church of AGW" regarding anything you disagree with.
 
Anaerobic digesters are definitely useful, but if you want to run one for energy generation in a residential home you're talking about re-doing your DWV plumbing- not a small cost given that it's all buried. You'd need to separate your grey water (laundry, bathing and likely dishwashing) from your true waste water, and you'd need to flush using a great deal less water. Digesters need quite a concentrated stream of organics. You'd also be talking about doing complete source separation of all your food and yard waste, preferably with grinding. Then there's the undigestible solid residue that you need to remove periodically from the digester. Then there's the genset, and presumably you'd want some storage in there too. Don't forget that you don't get methane out of these systems, you get an equimolar mixture of methane and CO2, so any storage scheme is processing a lot of inerts which hurts the efficiency. Definitely worthwhile on a farm, but not sure if the average residence is going to want to put up with this.

In comparison, some solar panels on your roof, with or without battery storage, is very easy and aside from perhaps a trip to the roof every once in a while with a hose and a squeegee- nearly maintenance free. Panels are now $1 CDN/watt and microinverters are around the same, and still getting cheaper.

We use a lot more energy in my climate for heating than in the form of electricity- obviously your climate is the other way around. Solar makes even more sense for you than it does for me.
 
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