Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

Do We Know what "Renewable Energy" means? 67

Status
Not open for further replies.

zdas04

Mechanical
Jun 25, 2002
10,274
0
0
US
Much is made these days about "renewable energy" almost always talking about (in declining order of importance to the narrative) wind, solar, hydro-electric, geothermal, solid biofuels, and liquid biofuels. What I cannot find is a definition that limits how renewable something has be be to be called "renewable".

For example, I have deployed thousands of PV solar panels on remote wellsites over the years. When I'm doing project economics I expect to replace 1/3 of the panels every year and 1/2 of the batteries every year. This is because birds and reptiles are incontinent and their waste on the warm surface tends to short out the electronics. Further, covering a panel with dust or sand reduces its effectiveness towards zero and the first sand storm sandblasts the surface to the point that the electronics can't tell night from day (and cleaning the panels shorts them out about as often as it doesn't). No matter what metric you use, Solar PV does not ever generate as much energy as went into the mining, raw material transport, fabrication, and finished product transport. The industrial units I've deployed return under 5% of the energy required to make them appear on site. Project economics reflect that and the economics often favor Solar PV over bringing in grid power, but the only part that is "renewable" is that fuel cost for operation is zero. The popular literature uses a 25-30 year life for solar panels. Fires and sand blasting experience at large solar arrays seem to make this number laughable if you actually take the panels out of the box.

Forbes Magazine had an article a while back that claimed that grid-scale wind power units get about 83% government grants, subsidies, and tax credits (i.e., a company desiring to install a $500,000 wind turbine would have $415,000 covered by federal programs, state programs would further reduce the cost in most states). Then the federal government has mandated a price that the utility must pay for any power generated beyond the company's need (which is retail price, not the wholesale price that they pay for other power). Expected actual power generation from a unit that size would be worth (both in sell back and in avoided power purchase) about $30k/year which is not enough to service the debt on a $500 k loan. In this case Forbes is using dollars as a surrogate for energy input and energy output, but that is usually a reasonable surrogate--bottom line is that without the government involvement wind energy would not pay for itself. Most "information" available on this topic is like Science Daily that uses nameplate hp, 24-hour/day, 366 days/year operation at 100% capacity and subsidized sales prices to say that the turbines pay for themselves in 5-8 months. This analysis assumes energy storage that has no energy cost (and that it exists, it doesn't). When you factor in back-up power supplies for calm days, and fuel needed for standby plants the 5-8 months becomes laughable, but that is the number that "researchers" in this field continue to use.

Geothermal (where is is a viable option) is likely significantly "renewable" in that you get more energy out of it then you put into it. New research is linking industrial-scale geothermal energy to significantly increased seismic activity (both frequency and severity), but it is renewable.

Hydro-electric represents a love-hate relationship with the environmental movements. The narrative around evil fossil-fuel shows hydro as a huge win (it represents about 6.8% of the U.S. electricity usage), but the land that is taken out of service, the changes to the eco system by changing fast moving rivers to slow moving lakes, and the absence of flooding in river bottoms is depleting soil. Dams silt up and require maintenance/repair. Still, hydro is renewable in that it provides many times the power required to deploy the technology.

Solid biofuels like wood chips and vegetable debris have serious delivery problems (and ash-removal problems and particulate matter pollution problems) that caused the Province of Ontario to have to derate their coal fired plants by half when they were converted to solid biofuels.

Liquid biofuels to date have primarily been oxygenators like ethanol. Adding 10% ethanol to gasoline (petrol) will reduce total fuel efficiency by about 13%. This means that a trip that would have taken 100 gallons of fuel will take about 113 gallons of fuel--101.7 gallons of gasoline and 11.3 gallons of ethanol. In other words it is significantly energy negative. Bio-diesel has about 77% of the specific energy of diesel and tends to gel, absorb water, and requires higher compression ratios. In general without government intervention, this is an idea who's time will never come.

That brings me to gaseous biofuels. Methane comes from anaerobic biological activity on organic waste. In a recent article I computed that contemporary methane sources are on the order of 5 TSCF/day (the world uses about 0.3 TSCF/day). The organisms on this planet generate so much organic waste that we don't even have to get a lot more effective at re-processing organic waste to supply the world's power needs forever--truly renewable and sustainable. The only hurdle is that the contemporary narrative has methane listed in the "evil fossil fuel" category and not in the "renewable" category. That is it. A small shift in the narrative and the world will turn the engineering community lose on this problem and very shortly we will have unlimited power for an unlimited number of future generations. There are already hundreds of small and medium sized dairy farms, chicken farms, pig farms, and feed lots that are harvesting the animal waste to generate heat and methane for power generation (you get methane from anaerobic digestion which requires a small power input and generates horrible smells, taking the last step in the process into an aerobic digester, which is exothermic, provides heat for the anaerobic process, and gets rid of the worst of the smells). Everyone with knowledge of this process knows that there are a number of things that could be done to improve yields and recover more of the biological energy, but with an EPA focused on "eliminating methane emissions", there is no incentive to commit the engineering effort required.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to change the narrative from "methane causes global warming" to "retail harvest of contemporary methane can be a big part of the solution"?

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

rb1957,
Commercial nuclear power plants have very low U-235 enrichment levels (compared to ships) and consequently change power pretty slowly. This means that they do not respond well to swings in load. To compensate for this, many nuclear power plants level-load their process by pumping water up the hill during slack times and running it back through turbines during slow times. Because of the nature of low-enrichment nuclear power, if they didn't use this power it would be wasted so they are using a waste product to store part of the power generated. Any power they get back, regardless of overall efficiency, is a plus in that they didn't have to change the status of the reactor to get it. Bottom line of this scheme is that having the pumped storage does not increase the refueling frequency (or therefore the amount of fuel added). The only cost to anyone is the capital requirements of the pump/generator station and minimal maintenance.

Hydro, coal, and natural gas plants can change demand pretty quickly so there is no real benefit to adding 20% efficient storage to a 70% efficient (for natural gas combined cycle) process, plus it would increase your fuel usage.

If you try pumped storage with solar you'll find that you get about 20% of the pumping power back in the form of generated power, so if you had a solar panel dedicated to pumped storage then on the equinox you would run out of water around 8:00 pm if you were trying to level load the system. Wind power is even less predictable.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
zdas04,

zdas04 said:
I have no idea what you mean by "arguing against phantoms"
You’re arguing against a position that no one really holds, therefore you’re arguing against something that isn’t there (i.e. phantoms). It’s kind of like a straw man except that I don’t think you are purposefully creating a weakened or extreme version of the position to attack, just a misguided one.

With regards to the Orkney Islands, I really don’t disagree with you but this time I think you’re arguing against a straw man. No one that knows what they are talking about believes that solar and wind alone can handle the world’s energy needs. It is understood that a very diverse energy portfolio is required. Wind and solar are expected to play a much larger role but with base load power (hydro, nuclear and maybe natural gas in the short term), more storage potential and a more interconnected grid. On top of that, we need to drastically cut demand growth. We also cannot expect this to happen anytime soon, it will take time to develop the technology and change the grid.

At the end of the day, cutting out the rhetoric proliferated by both extremes in this topic is required. I agree with you that dropping the pie-in-the-sky style thinking about wind and solar is needed. But so is dropping the short sighted thinking that they “have no place in our mainstream energy mix ever”.

(As to your accounting of natural versus anthropogenic emissions, you ignore natural sinks. A simple mass balance explains why human sources are responsible for the increase in atmospheric concentrations. But likely we’ll agree to disagree.)
 
"Hydro, coal, and natural gas plants can change demand pretty quickly" - what does 'pretty quickly' mean here?
correct me if I'm wrong, hydro and natural gas can change power within seconds to single digit minutes while with coal it's more hours to days.

Agree with the above (rconnor & moltenmetal) that the future energy mix and usage will look vastly different and there's no way around drastic reduction in demand. The existing natural gas grid and infrastructure may remain useful, IDK. But the more interesting question is how to make the best use of the power we can generate renewably in abundance, and that seems to be wind and solar electricity.



p.s. This is a plant that delivers 700Nm³/h biomethane to the grid. Also produces ammonia sulfate fertilizer, it's own electricity and then some.
 
You aren't wrong MartinLe, I think 24 hours is typical to change the output of coal plant. They are baseload generating capacity, often utilities with mostly coal generating capacity have a few natural gas plants as well.

zdas, it's hard to fathom you did so much research on methane emissions and are completely ignorant of the methane cycle. There is naturally occurring methane (a large amount as you so correctly surmised) that provides part of the greenhouse effect that keeps us from freezing, and later degrades into water vapour (this is important for our climate), and carbon dioxide (returns to the carbon cycle). No one has ever claimed that there wasn't methane released into the atmosphere before, just like no one believes that humans are the sole reason there is CO2 in the air around us. These are important climatic gases, and by changing their concentration, we change the climate. By your numbers alone, the oil and gas industry accounts for an increase in 7% of methane emissions over naturally occurring emissions, and there are the added impacts of agriculture on top of this.
 
I believe what I see is some people discussing power plant ramp rates, and steam plants (coal, gas or other) don't ramp very fast (as in a few percent every hour). Gas turbines (using gas, oil, or other liquid/gas) do have a faster ramp rate than steam plants. Hydro plants are very fast at ramp rates, but there are not as many as people assume. IC engines (oil or gas) maybe some of the fastest ramp rates, but are not generally thought of as very efficient. Combined cycle plants tend to be a blend of steam and gas turbines, which have a blended ramp rate as each part is different.

Now with large amounts of wind or solar that can go from full output to zero in seconds, what is the best backup for that?

The other issue is the start up times for each of the power plant types.

So to be able to back up wind or solar with an efficient power plant, that plant needs to be on-line (at some base level), have extra capacity (not fully in use), and have a size that the ramp rate can cover in a reasonable time.
Or you can have energy storage.

So how much of a power plant do you want to have sitting idle so you can be using wind or solar?

And I am not trying to be negative on solar or wind, but realistic in stating there are limits on how much the grid can support.
 
rconnor,
I have never in my live seen someone so arrogant with so little cause. Your insulting link to "And then there's Physics" is, well, insulting. Written by someone who is quite certain that you can win any argument by simply putting a derivative in an equation. All of the "without us nature would be in balance" discussions ignore three facts: (1) nature does not do balance, nature does change towards lower entropy over the long haul; (2) climate changes on a geologic time scale, not on a human time scale; and (3) nature is putting something on the order of 5 TSCF/day of methane into the biosphere, man is putting about 20 MSCF/day according to GlobalMethane.org, so you are saying that a sink that has no problem with 5 TSCF/day cannot deal with adding 0.0000004%.

The "balance of nature" is just romantic nonsense that really does not have a place in rational discussion.

The earth has been dealing with the rise and fall of species for over 4 billion years, but the AGW discussion has focused on the last 40 years, If geologic time were a year, we've been "industrialized" for 0.5 second, Mother Earth can hold her breath that long without noticing. Before you say that a nuclear explosion only lasts a few nanoseconds, I must remind you that Nagasaki and Hiroshima are thriving, vibrant communities today, we gave it our "best" and nature simply shrugged it off.

Accusing me of "ignoring natural sinks" is an infuriating indication that your mind was as closed to reason on this subject as it seems to be on all others. I didn't "ignore natural sinks" I was simply analyzing sources. No where in that paper did I even hint that I cared where the methane went once produced. The purpose of the document was to be the opening section of my chapter on Reservoirs in the book I am writing. Simply sources. Sinks is a different discussion that was not germane to my goal. You might as well have chastised me for not talking about celebrity hair styles. Of course there are sinks, otherwise we would have a methane atmosphere and would have evolved differently or not at all.

The thing in your post that caused me to lose sleep last night in my rage was:
rconnor said:
No one that knows what they are talking about believes that solar and wind alone can handle the world’s energy needs.

If I thought there was any point to it I could link dozens of pal-reviewed papers from respected journals (i.e., the 21st century's yellow journalism) that claim exactly that. The claim is made in journals and repeated in the main stream media every day that "wind has become less expensive than natural gas" and Peru (or the Orkney Islands or the Bavarian state of Germany) has moved to 100% "renewable". Always with the strong implication that the source is wind and solar without pointing out that those sources are kind of close to zero on calm nights. The spin, hype, and unsupported rhetoric is convincing the populace that the current "war on coal" and the imminent "war on fossil fuels" is somehow doing a good thing. It is doing a horrible thing in the name of made-up hysteria.

As I've said on many occasions, I am a user of solar and have used wind FOR APPROPRIATE LOADS. The grid needs reactive sources to deal successfully with reactive loads. If I increase or decrease the load on a steam turbine, inertia acts to keep the power frequency constant. If I increase the load on an inverter, frequency drops. That breaks stuff. Wind and solar have a place in the world, absolutely. They have no place as a pseudo-source for the power grid. Ever. This discussion would not have even taken place without the political hysteria around AGW. I have talked to dozens of power engineers and every one of them says that their conventional fuel costs, total emissions of real pollutants, and downtime are significantly higher BECAUSE of wind and solar being grid-connected. This says to me that the incentives to connect these sources to the grid only exist in a political fairy land. Without the politics, the power companies save the fuel, save the emissions of real pollutants, and minimize downtime by never connecting this stuff to the grid. Ever.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
Canwesteng,
I would certainly like to know how you could make statement
By your numbers alone, the oil and gas industry accounts for an increase in 7% of methane emissions over naturally occurring emissions, and there are the added impacts of agriculture on top of this
.

Nature produces 5 TSCF/day. The oil & Gas industry produces 0.332 TSCF/day. PRODUCES, not RELEASES. Mankind's total release of methane to the atmosphere is on the order of 0.00000000020 TSCF/day (20 MSCF/day). The rest of the natural gas produced goes into heating your home, generating your hot water, providing your electricity. Possibly wasteful in certain people's case, but generally seen as beneficial.

As to how long it takes a coal plant to respond to changes in load, you have to include magnitude of change. I asked a power engineer who was presenting to a NSPE meeting last week and he said that 30% swings are no problem in his coal fired plant. Swings bigger than that require bringing standby equipment on line (takes about 15 minutes) or starting up a cold boiler (about a day). He has been working in that coal plant for 18 years and has never once had to bring on a cold boiler in emergency mode, they always have notice of swings bigger than 30% of their 700 MW plant (because people with that kind of load don't want to take the grid down and have to do their start up again).

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
IRstuff and moltenmetal - My mistake on geothermal. I thought I had read/learned that it was the continuous churning of magma (friction) that kept the interior hot - churning that is caused directly or indirectly by the gravity of the earth and sun. According to this article, I was not entirely wrong, but this motion only accounts for a small fraction of produced heat. Most of the heat (~90%) comes from radioactive decay. On the bright side, I learned something today.

 
I find it curious that the article claims the metal core is expanding as it cools, rather than shrinking as it cools. Was I asleep that day in physics class?

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
 
zdas04,

zdas04 said:
so you are saying that a sink that has no problem with 5 TSCF/day cannot deal with adding 0.0000004%.
Apparently. But maybe it's just coincidence.

zdas04 said:
(2) climate changes on a geologic time scale, not on a human time scale
Normally, yes. That makes all the recent changes in climate (CO2 and methane atmospheric concentrations, global temperatures, OHC, sea ice loss, glacier loss, sea level, etc.), that's happen on human time scales, so darn strange. But maybe it's just coincidence.

But I know, I know, all this evidence is trash, an entire field of experts, journals and academic institutions are corrupt and you are correct. Please excuse my arrogance. I don't want to steer the topic away from your original point, so let's return to the topic of "renewables".

zdas04 said:
If I thought there was any point to it I could link dozens of pal-reviewed papers from respected journals
Please link me one that says solar and wind alone could supply the world's energy. Sure maybe they argue "renewables" could but that includes things other than solar and wind alone.

zdas04 said:
I have talked to dozens of power engineers and every one of them says that their conventional fuel costs, total emissions of real pollutants, and downtime are significantly higher BECAUSE of wind and solar being grid-connected.
My anecdotes, from working in utilities, are different than yours. But anecdotes are anecdotes, let's just say our mileage varies.
 
30% swings on coal plants are based on the plant size. So for a 700MW plant it can swing 210 MW, provided it is not running above 490 MW. A 150 MW plant swings only 45 MW in the same example.

I don't think you honestly believe we should limit wind or solar power to 30% of the FF generator size. Besides why would a company leave 30% of their investment floating if the wind or solar power costs more?

Most likely if a 30% swing can be expected there would be a simple cycle gas turbine waiting. This is a much less efficient unit, and has a high cost of start up (for the size).
 
cranky, the problem is going to be exactly the opposite one: who is going to run their fossil fueled power plant, much less build one, when power can be obtained with zero fuel cost from a built renewables unit like a windmill or solar panel array?

We already got rid of all our coal plants in Ontario. And good riddance to them. Yes, we kept a couple northern ones and run them on biomass as zdas04 mentioned, but that's more a political and local grid issue than it is one of broader energy policy.

Deployable demand (i.e. EV chargers) and demand suppression (i.e. remote control of air conditioners to shed peak load) along with storage and likely broader grids are going to be necessary to deal with solar and wind intermittency, but gas peakers are also part of the equation and will be for a long time.

Here we have a lot of hydro (typically about 30% of our grid power), but apparently only a few of them are designed for peak regulation.

 
A supergrid is needed. If energy can be shuttled cross country the dips and peaks are handled by controlling flow, and linking these systems with short term weather prediction systems enables a degree of delivery to be high reliability. That is the start. Take power where available and deliver it to where it is needed.

Yeah it will be very expensive.

 
Sounds like a great way for the federal government to squeeze us by the balls even harder, 2dye4. You know what we actually need as humans? Go ask the Amish. The end.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
Supergrid. Is that like the coming (already here) cloud? First they control your computer........

Back to the subject: Is computing power a resource? Renewable?
 
The deep thinkers that I've talked to at Los Alamos National Laboratory see the future direction as more, smaller generation stations (mostly combined cycle) distributed everywhere. Their problem with the Soviet one-huge-station model is that a single outage drops too much capacity for loads to be shunted to other sources and you get major disruptions from a minor glitch. With a vastly distributed (and interconnected) network these guys think that a single plant outage becomes self-correcting. They seem to think that the SuperGrid idea is one that needs to die. I was quite unable to follow all of their reasoning, but this isn't my area of expertise.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
cranky108,

Improvements in transmission and controls limit these issues, but they are still definitely there. In North America, NERC/FERC works on improving the reliability of the bulk power grid. Much of the regulation was driven from past mistakes such as the Northeast blackout in 2003 that lead to the Energy Policy Act of 2005.

We already have interconnections that could be considered quasi-Super Grids. For example, Minnesota gets a chunk of its power (>10%) from hydro dams on the Nelson River in Northern Manitoba but this also allows Manitoba to receive power from Minnesota during extended droughts. Short-term/day markets allow for, as an example, sales of surplus power during high water periods, that would otherwise be spilled.
 
rconnor,
Are you intending to lecture me on NERC/FERC regulations? Or do you want me to tell you about the paperwork mess NERC/FERC regulations really are?

Are you also trying to tell me how the power grid works? Or would you like me to tell you how local generation is more efficient than remote generation? How accountants believe cheaper power is more important than potential voltage collapse?

How much do you know about power system stability?, about VAR flow? About customer NIMBY?





 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top