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Do We Know what "Renewable Energy" means? 67

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zdas04

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Jun 25, 2002
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Much is made these days about "renewable energy" almost always talking about (in declining order of importance to the narrative) wind, solar, hydro-electric, geothermal, solid biofuels, and liquid biofuels. What I cannot find is a definition that limits how renewable something has be be to be called "renewable".

For example, I have deployed thousands of PV solar panels on remote wellsites over the years. When I'm doing project economics I expect to replace 1/3 of the panels every year and 1/2 of the batteries every year. This is because birds and reptiles are incontinent and their waste on the warm surface tends to short out the electronics. Further, covering a panel with dust or sand reduces its effectiveness towards zero and the first sand storm sandblasts the surface to the point that the electronics can't tell night from day (and cleaning the panels shorts them out about as often as it doesn't). No matter what metric you use, Solar PV does not ever generate as much energy as went into the mining, raw material transport, fabrication, and finished product transport. The industrial units I've deployed return under 5% of the energy required to make them appear on site. Project economics reflect that and the economics often favor Solar PV over bringing in grid power, but the only part that is "renewable" is that fuel cost for operation is zero. The popular literature uses a 25-30 year life for solar panels. Fires and sand blasting experience at large solar arrays seem to make this number laughable if you actually take the panels out of the box.

Forbes Magazine had an article a while back that claimed that grid-scale wind power units get about 83% government grants, subsidies, and tax credits (i.e., a company desiring to install a $500,000 wind turbine would have $415,000 covered by federal programs, state programs would further reduce the cost in most states). Then the federal government has mandated a price that the utility must pay for any power generated beyond the company's need (which is retail price, not the wholesale price that they pay for other power). Expected actual power generation from a unit that size would be worth (both in sell back and in avoided power purchase) about $30k/year which is not enough to service the debt on a $500 k loan. In this case Forbes is using dollars as a surrogate for energy input and energy output, but that is usually a reasonable surrogate--bottom line is that without the government involvement wind energy would not pay for itself. Most "information" available on this topic is like Science Daily that uses nameplate hp, 24-hour/day, 366 days/year operation at 100% capacity and subsidized sales prices to say that the turbines pay for themselves in 5-8 months. This analysis assumes energy storage that has no energy cost (and that it exists, it doesn't). When you factor in back-up power supplies for calm days, and fuel needed for standby plants the 5-8 months becomes laughable, but that is the number that "researchers" in this field continue to use.

Geothermal (where is is a viable option) is likely significantly "renewable" in that you get more energy out of it then you put into it. New research is linking industrial-scale geothermal energy to significantly increased seismic activity (both frequency and severity), but it is renewable.

Hydro-electric represents a love-hate relationship with the environmental movements. The narrative around evil fossil-fuel shows hydro as a huge win (it represents about 6.8% of the U.S. electricity usage), but the land that is taken out of service, the changes to the eco system by changing fast moving rivers to slow moving lakes, and the absence of flooding in river bottoms is depleting soil. Dams silt up and require maintenance/repair. Still, hydro is renewable in that it provides many times the power required to deploy the technology.

Solid biofuels like wood chips and vegetable debris have serious delivery problems (and ash-removal problems and particulate matter pollution problems) that caused the Province of Ontario to have to derate their coal fired plants by half when they were converted to solid biofuels.

Liquid biofuels to date have primarily been oxygenators like ethanol. Adding 10% ethanol to gasoline (petrol) will reduce total fuel efficiency by about 13%. This means that a trip that would have taken 100 gallons of fuel will take about 113 gallons of fuel--101.7 gallons of gasoline and 11.3 gallons of ethanol. In other words it is significantly energy negative. Bio-diesel has about 77% of the specific energy of diesel and tends to gel, absorb water, and requires higher compression ratios. In general without government intervention, this is an idea who's time will never come.

That brings me to gaseous biofuels. Methane comes from anaerobic biological activity on organic waste. In a recent article I computed that contemporary methane sources are on the order of 5 TSCF/day (the world uses about 0.3 TSCF/day). The organisms on this planet generate so much organic waste that we don't even have to get a lot more effective at re-processing organic waste to supply the world's power needs forever--truly renewable and sustainable. The only hurdle is that the contemporary narrative has methane listed in the "evil fossil fuel" category and not in the "renewable" category. That is it. A small shift in the narrative and the world will turn the engineering community lose on this problem and very shortly we will have unlimited power for an unlimited number of future generations. There are already hundreds of small and medium sized dairy farms, chicken farms, pig farms, and feed lots that are harvesting the animal waste to generate heat and methane for power generation (you get methane from anaerobic digestion which requires a small power input and generates horrible smells, taking the last step in the process into an aerobic digester, which is exothermic, provides heat for the anaerobic process, and gets rid of the worst of the smells). Everyone with knowledge of this process knows that there are a number of things that could be done to improve yields and recover more of the biological energy, but with an EPA focused on "eliminating methane emissions", there is no incentive to commit the engineering effort required.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to change the narrative from "methane causes global warming" to "retail harvest of contemporary methane can be a big part of the solution"?

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
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cranky108, I wasn't aware this was your wheelhouse but I see that it is. Sorry if it sounded patronizing but no lecture was intended.

My point is really that while instability is an issue (I said "[those problems] are definitely still there"), it isn't insurmountable; we already have a fairly large, interconnected grid (and it seems to work well enough...and is getting better). I agree that it would be great to pluck down generation right next to the use but that isn't always possible (technologically, financially or socially). Furthermore, there is benefit to a diverse and interconnected grid - it allows you to handle outages (all sources), droughts (for hydro), fuel price spikes (for coal/natural gas), calm days (for wind) and cloudy days (for solar).

I agree with what you said in the last post. NERC is a mess of paper work (but I'd argue that it does add reliability and stability to the grid at the end of the day though). I also agree that local generation is more efficient (however access to power from other areas and sources is beneficial). I agree that the (short sighted) profiteering of energy trading can cause issues (but that's kind of what NERC protects against). Yes, system stability is a major concern (but so is failure of local generation without the interconnectedness of the grid). And yes, when it comes to routing transmission lines, NIMBYism is a huge factor (no but or however there!).
 
The big problem is government (including NERC/FERC) over reaching and micro management in the energy markets.

The push for a limited number of "renewable" solutions is some goal (I don't need to go there).

The real answer is that we need a good mix of energy solutions, and the economics is the guide that most reasonable company managers use to decide that mix. Changing the economics by taxes or tax incentives is government influence (at the least).

But back to renewable means, that it will grow or renew itself on a human time frame (after all coal and oil are forms of stored sun light).

So why is wood not being pushed as a renewable? It's not like they aren't being burned anyway.

NERC/FERC have done some good, but it has cost the consumers in the wallet, and what is the true value added? Can that value be measured?
 
cranky108,
Wood is the darkest of dark little secrets in the world of "government power management". It is nearly impossible to get enough oxygen into the combustion process so the CO numbers from wood fires are so bad that no industrial process in the world would be allowed to use it without significant permissions to violate a country's version of the Clean Air Act. Same with particulate matter. Same with ash disposal. Large scale wood burning is seen by actual environmental scientists as a truly horrible idea. Global warming zealots tout it as renewable and brag about using (gasoline powered) chain saws, (gasoline powered) log splitters, and (gasoline powered) hauling equipment to save the planet from fossil fuel use. The last few years in Germany have required the Army to guard the Black Forest from city folks walking into the woods with wheel barrows and (hand powered) cross-cut saws to save themselves from energy poverty, this model does reduce fossil fuel imports, but the air is becoming pretty nasty again.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
So is wood burning cleaner than forest fires?

What happens if you don't cut your lawn because you don't want to use gasoline?

Where does all the coal ash presently go?

My point is the issues you brought up can be solved. We just need the will to do so.
Maybe extending the solar tax incentives to wood.

 
Cranky108,

cranky108 said:
The big problem is government (including NERC/FERC) over reaching
I work in a market that is likely much different than yours but likely with much more government involvement (Crown Corp). At times, some very big and very silly decisions can be driven from the government, which can be flipped (to an equally silly decision) by the next government. As an example, my whole department is now in limbo due to the government trying to solve an “optics” problem that doesn’t really exist. So I do understand this well.

However, even in an area of relatively extreme government involvement, the actual impact on reliability and stability is not noticeably negative. In fact, I would say more attention is paid to reliability and stability than in other jurisdictions because, ultimately, we are responsible to the Province, not shareholders. We also enjoy, due to good natural resources, some of the lowest rates in North America.

Government involvement can cause us a TON of headaches but, from an outside perspective, I don’t see it as being noticeably negative (and could be slightly positive). Again, this is my experience in my jurisdiction, your mileage will vary.

cranky108 said:
The push for a limited number of "renewable" solutions is some goal (I don't need to go there).
I will, of course, argue that the goal is not a political one but one pushed from the science. You, of course, will disagree. As you said, we needn’t go there. But ultimately, this conversation will always come back to this disagreement because, without factoring in the externalities, fossil fuels will beat renewables. So, of course if you reject or ignore the externalities, the push for renewables seems silly.

cranky108 said:
Changing the economics by taxes or tax incentives is government influence (at the least).
I don’t disagree. I do, however, feel that government influence may be required to have utilities worry about things other than their bottom line. I feel that Enron and the 2003 blackout are two examples of why it’s needed. Again, I feel you will disagree.

cranky108 said:
So why is wood not being pushed as a renewable?
Deforestation and air quality. On small scales, it’s not bad. As a major component of our energy generation, it’s likely not so smart.

cranky108 said:
NERC/FERC have done some good, but it has cost the consumers in the wallet, and what is the true value added? Can that value be measured?
Some information here.
 
I notice that no one said anything about my comment about "human time frame".

I would also like to point out that the bottom line comment does not apply, as many utilities are non-profit governmental service companies.

Truthfully, the number of western fires could be reduced by even limited cutting to create fire breaks, possible fire lines, and even just the removal of some fuel. But I also agree that clear cutting of all ground cover is going too far.

I also don't believe all the energy to construct wind or solar farms comes from "Renewable" sources like is stated as a negative for wood energy. And by the way, the energy for constructing power lines is also likely not from renewable sources.

NERC/FERC should be taking a view that dispatchable and deverse energy is more valued over other sources so as to add to the stability of the power grid. But those are not the political games that are being played.
 
rconnor,
I have been in meetings with Greenpeace, Wild Earth Guardians, Sierra Club, etc. and every e-NGO present took strong exception to the term "zealot" being applied to them. Just saying.

The "zealots" I was talking about go to social media sites like CFACT on Facebook and proclaim in all caps that they are fixing the environment by buying their kids Prius' and heating with wood.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
rconnor ... i couldn't open your link ... well, it did open but only a grey pdf ... i looked on the site, but couldn't see anything that'd get your link quickly.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
 
cranky108,
cranky108 said:
I would also like to point out that the bottom line comment does not apply, as many utilities are non-profit governmental service companies.
Except for the big ones… (The top 10 largest utilities in the US are all investor owned)

cranky108 said:
NERC/FERC should be taking a view that…
NERC/FERC do not drive what types of generation are installed. So they have little say in these “political games”.

zdas04,
zdas04 said:
every e-NGO present took strong exception to the term "zealot" being applied to them.
It’s your term, not mine.

I thought you were talking about some relevant group that has some kind of influence and authority in this discussion, so I chose Greenpeace because it’s one of the more extreme viewpoints that is relevant (giving you the benefit of the doubt).

By the way, I think the term you used for those e-NGO’s was “anti-humans”. Would they take exception to that term?

zdas04 said:
The "zealots" I was talking about go to social media sites
What possible use would it be to bring up random extreme views found on social media? Again, you’re arguing against random, extreme positions that are not representative of the core views of the other side of the debate.

The point of the matter is that the core of the other side of the debate does not see wood fuel as “clean energy”, to insinuate otherwise is wrong. To say that “well, some guy on facebook said it was!” is a straw man.

rb1957,
All the links work for me (it does take a while to load). Which link are you referring to? If NERC, search “NERC state of reliability 2015” and it should be one of the first hits. If Greenpeace, search “Greenpeace wood fuel” or “Greenpeace Fuelling a BioMess”.
 
"So why is wood not being pushed as a renewable?"

Probably because we can't grow enough trees to support even a tiny portion of our energy needs. Wood has 1/5th the energy density of oil, so if we're using 20 million barrels of oil per day, we would need to increase worldwide wood production by 50%, just for US needs.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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rconnor,
They took exception to that one too. They arrived (with a half dozen lawyers for each group of course) to give comments about a subject that collectively they had no knowledge of, just outrage and invective. My response was to say "in spite of the anti-human sentiments presented by the environmental zealots, we simply cannot repeal the laws of physics" they objected. Some people just have thin skins.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
zdas04:
"The last few years in Germany have required the Army to guard the Black Forest from city folks walking into the woods with wheel barrows and (hand powered) cross-cut saws to save themselves from energy poverty, this model does reduce fossil fuel imports, but the air is becoming pretty nasty again."
citation needed. Seems dubious, domestic use of the Bundeswehr has constitutional barriers. Googling the relevant terms turned up nothing in german media.

btw, the claim about CO and wood seemed also dubious so I checked the TA Luft - wood 15g/m³, oil 80mg/m³. what the heck. Maybe a sensible exception for small residential stoves, but large power plants not so much.
FWIW, my impression was also that the larger e-NGOs and many activists are deeply sceptical on mass biomass use.

I think the current darling among biomass plants is miscanthus (elefant grass), with 10-25t/ha dry matter possible in temeperate climates. Miscanthus as fuel has all the problems of wood and then some, the silica and ash content is higher and the melting temp. of the slag is lower.
Miscanthus is close to wood in caloric value, 4,5kWh/kg so @15t DM/ha a we have 67,5MWh/ha a. On that ha we could have 200-300kWp photovoltaics.

My takeaway: Biomass won't supplant fossiles at anything near the magnitude we burn them now.

 
When we are talking about wood gas or wood fuel, lets look at this differently.

Call it Biomass or Syngas. It doesn't have to come from wood. I can run an engine on my neighbor's garbage.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
So am I seeing wood being pushed off on the basis of there is not enough of it? Seems like people are looking for a single solution, and not like the several solutions we have now (coal, oil, gas, hydro, etc).

 
As was already mentioned, wood is currently being burned in a few converted coal power plants in Ontario. Not without its problems of course, but the pulp and paper guys are very interested in doing something with their feedstock other than making paper. The trouble is that a forest scrubbed of biomass for burning or fuel conversion use isn't sustainable- you need to get the nutrient mineral content back onto the land to have a hope, but there are other problems when you try to treat a natural ecosystem that way.

Biomass does have a couple legitimate fuels uses in a post-fossil economy, primarily to replace jet fuel with a renewable non-fossil source. Most of the other fuels uses are either marginal (i.e. burning wood- makes sense where sufficient wood is plentiful very nearby), inefficient due to the energy cost of drying and transport of the feedstock (i.e. anything using corn stover etc.), or result in essentially the burning of food (whether that be human food i.e. corn to ethanol, or animal food i.e. waste vegetable oils to biodiesel) for at most a very modest improvement in CO2 emissions.

Biomass also has significant, though limited, legitimate chemical feedstock uses. I'm still a big advocate of saving our fossil carbon resources for this use, burning those precious non-renewable materials only after we've gotten a couple product lifecycles out of them.

The amusing thing is that corn ethanol plants don't generate steam to run their equipment by burning cellulosic biomass: they generally burn natural gas. They do this for the same reason that heavy oil upgraders in Alberta don't gasify petroleum coke to make the hydrogen they need (although they certainly could)- there is insufficient cost advantage to make the trouble worthwhile. Why? Gas is cheap. You can think of both processes as somewhat economically sensible "gas to liquids" schemes, unlike most of the more "direct" GTL/XTL schemes (Fisher Tropsch, methanol/dimethyl ether to gasoline etc. etc.)

 
You can remove biomass from the forest an return the ashes to the land. This is sustainable as the carbon cycle will return that biomass to the land. Think of it as a forest fire, but instead of just letting a forest burn, we're powering our engines with it. Same net result for the forest. That wood IS going to be burned regardless of anything that we do.

See conservation of energy or mass. Then look into the carbon cycle. Unless the ashes are disposed of in the same manner as nuclear waste, then the cycles will continue with minimal effort from humans in facilitating that.

I do agree biogas is not the end-all solution (as our population currently sits). I also don't think there is an end-all solution. We're going to need an array of local energy sources. The only common denominator is solar energy.



"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
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