Document Control

[gwynn]

This is an issue I run into all of the time, and it always drives me crazy (apologies if parts sound like a rant).

As I've said a few times elsewhere on the forums, roughly half of my time is spent on construction engineering. One of the biggest features of construction engineering is the timeline. Many projects come in within a week of the engineering completion date, some the same day (it's not uncommon to receive sketches of what has been built for approval). In short, time is of the essence.

So, why is it that when we say upfront that we require all of the pertinent information (design drawings, soil reports, hydrological reports etc. - and we specify what we need) that we end up with an unscaled sketch of what the contractor wants to do? Document control.

When I have left four phone messages and sent three emails telling someone I cannot complete the design because I require the rest of the drawings, I expect to receive the drawings not angry phone calls asking me why the project hasn't been finished.

Now don't get me wrong, some clients are great. I'll get everything from design drawings down to the mill certificates up front if I suggest I may need them. Along with a statement listing thier expected needs, what methods they would like to use, what materials and equipment are in thier yard etc. But the way some companies and project managers hoard all information as if thier life depends on it makes everyone's lives more difficult.

I have tried explaining up front what is needed, laying out extra times and costs for not receiving the information soon enough and pointing out how these did happen on previous projects (among other things), but I still get a poorly drawn sketch with little basis in reality from some.

Any ideas on how I can get some of the information misers to hand over thier precious drawinga and reports?

 

[IRstuff]

Aren't they spelled out in your contract, along with the due dates? Why not add a monetary clause, or a programmed schedule slippage chargeable to the client? Nothing speaks louder than money.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[carnage1]

I agree with IR, increase the money requirements if you don't get the information you need.
Also if I got a hand drawn sketch on a piece of copy paper and they complained that I wasn't magically done I would give them back a sketch on a paper napkin and ask for payment

Luck is a difficult thing to verify and therefore should be tested often. - Me

 

[BigInch]

Withhold X% * Time until all contract conditions, including document requirements, are fulfilled as specified.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
***************

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[salmon2]

This is normal. If the problem is your clients, it is actually better because you can always pound them.

I got the same problem with our other departments all the time, basically I can't do anything about it - I can't use money to punish them. I have to remind, remind and remind them so many times. By the way, elevating to their heads is not helping, actually sometime I am dealing with their heads who supposed allegate my questions to some person in his group. My boss? Doesn't help either. Usually he won't bother to speak up or help. And at the end of day, he only cares if it is done. Not done on time is a not done on time to him. He wouldn't even listen why it is not done on time.

 

[salmon2]

My boss's two main attitudes which I don't like:

1) you report a problem, you fix it. But 100% of time, it is others' problems. If it is my own, I will fix it without telling him, right?

2) you submit a suggestion, you carry it forward. No support at all.

We a bunch of engineers don't have specific assignment. This is what he call team work, or team objective. I almost can say I self never did anything wrong or not on time, but I got negative comments from my boss all the time because of others not pulling their weights.

 

[KENAT]

You can put it in your contract etc. as above that not receiving them will cause day for day delays etc., in fact it should probably be there but...

If there are competitors that are willing to work to the 'back of a napkin' sketch then you may lose business, although it may be business you'd be better without.

I'm not sure it works with the liability of your situation but the approach I've taken in similar situations in my field is to make assumptions and clearly state those assumptions in the pack handed back to the customer. I try & avoid this but if they are pressing me for results but refusing to make information available then I will use it.

Sometimes, I'll make reasonable assumptions when I believe it's low risk. If the risk is higher I'll sometimes make very conservative assumptions which I know will flag major problems. They'll often then come back saying 'how come it doesn't work now' or similar and I'll point out my assumptions and they'll say 'that's not right the value is only XXX' or similar and I'll get the information I need this way.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Their lack of planning does not make it your emergency....

I use that line a lot - and some people actaully pay attention. But the ones that don't - never will!!!

 

[Mr168]

gwynn-

The problem you face here is the single biggest limiting factor in my own work. Not only do I have to wait on the client, but often from our other engineering groups to pass on the pertinent information.

As you mentioned, some outside companies are nightmarish to deal with. Hitachi is one that comes to mind in regards to anything surrounding their boilers. This is compounded by the fact that we are not even allowed to contact the client directly, but have to go through an "interface" group, not all of whom are all that technically familiar with the particulars I'm always looking for.

The end result is often comparable to your own, only I've got site managers calling and asking for procedures and applicable process specifications when I've never received the material specs to apply them to in the first place. Then, when something goes wrong in the field because they had to make a Johnny-on-the-spot call that they shouldn't have had to make, project management goes and blames us.

And because this is a huge corporation and these problems plague us internally as well, any concerns we raise are merely brushed aside by those lingering at the top tiers.

I too really wish I knew the answer to this dilemma, because it would CERTAINLY make my job a lot easier.

 

[gwynn]

Mr168,

The problem I have is very similar to the problem you have described with Hitachi. By which I mean this is with very large companies. These are clients we have no interest in ever losing. At least I do deal directly with the client.

To the comments about monetary penalties and delays, these are already there to an extent. Most of this work is billed by the hour, so if it takes longer to do it costs more. If I see I don't have enough information to finish a design it will sit in my inbox until I do.

For much of this work additional monetary costs would need to be ridicukously over the top to have an effect. If a form panel or shoring system takes 6-8 hours engineering and drafting time when the construction bid was over a hundred million, we're talking about a miniscule portion of the engineering budget.

KENAT
I generally avoid making assumptions, even in low risk situations. Partially because when I have made do with incomplete information in the past it becomes more difficult to get enough information the next time I'm dealing with the same person.

 

[KENAT]

gwynn, as I stated I wasn't sure it would be appropriate for your case. Most of my clients in these situations have been internal.

For the external ones I either refused to do it with out the information or made assumptions so conservative they couldnt' live with the consequences and eventually gave me the info I needed.

I should emphasise that in cases were assumptions are made these are highlighted to the customer.

At times I have had to resort to CC peoples managers and/or my boss to get impetous. I don't particularly like to do this as I don't like it when people do it to me but sometimes needs must.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[GregLocock]

When you are negotiating the contract make sure that the timeline for supply of the details you need, and a good description of the info itself, or at least a separate timeline/budget showing how that part of the spec is to be defined, would be a great idea. That requires a certain amount of crystal ball gazing of course. That's why project managers are paid the big bucks.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[KENAT]

"That's why project managers are paid the big bucks." I was?;-)

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[DWHA]

I run into this situation a lot. The company I work for has a verbal agreement with multiple contractors to design all of their falsework for them. We have no contracts, they just pay us by the hour for the work that we do. They often complain that "the last project was kinda expensive" but they say that every time. And they keep paying the bill. They keep coming back to us cause we work well with them and alway try our best to get them their plans as soon as we can. What we have done is make check sheets for the most common type of falseworks that we design. Say for a temp sheeting design. The check sheet included: existing plans & proposed plans, soil boring, contractor sketch, beams on stock (incase a waler is needed), type of sheeting they would like to use, etc. That way when they call you up to tell you that they are going to need a design, you can send them the check sheet. And keep sending it to them until you have everything you need.

 

[rcooper]

From the client's perspective, they are not necessarily the experts, that is why they are employing you. They may not know what you need and therefore haven't commissioned the tests which you require.

As for record drawings, things happen within the client organisation which might make it difficult or impossible to provide these to you. An example from a current client - they scanned all their record drawings into a computer. The originals were destroyed. Something happened to the stored files and they were corrupted and lost.

Now when I write a contract which will be between this client and an engineer, I give the engineer everything I have, even if it is nothing and expect them to commission the required surveys they need to get the job done. I do not accept engineers throwing their hands up in the air and stopping work because some information is not available, I expect them to find the information or adjust their designs to suit the level of information available.

This attitude came about from working as a designer for a client who had no information. We would include in our costs for the whole suit of surveys we thought necessary and because we could explain to the client why they were needed, they paid up.

As a note, I work in the UK where, I believe, engineers have a different status to those in the US.