Does democracy breed excellence 5

[arunmrao]

I have been debating myself and I thought now of posing the same to you members. Ideally democratic climate should promote the path to excellence for there would be very few hurdles.But the results are not too often seen.

While in the not so democratic countries the pressures to achieve and excel is huge and you can find stars in all walks of life.

I invite your views on this aspect and thank you in advance for your contributions. It will help me in my thought process.

 

[Bbird]

As the thread is in Eng-tips I take it you mean excellence in engineering.

In a democratic society we have commercial pressure and that can also be huge, although we don't get executed if we fail to meet the deadline. Some could be driven to suicides or become nuts as you can detect from reading this site.

Advance in human knowledge is possible because some individuals take a keen interest in what they do and not just to satisfy their employers or the state. The free flow of information (apart from those with a commercial value), which is an essential feature of a democratic society, can foster the development of engineering excellence.

Perhaps the most important aspect of the advance in engineering and technology is the market force of supply and demand. If one's service and product can be traded or made available quickly and freely in an open market to satisfy a society's need the subsequent financial success can fuel the further development.

Necessity is the mother of invention. If you can find a good engineering solution for your people but are not allowed to trade or pass on freely then your excellence doesn't breed, does it?

Everything a democratic society can do can be achieved by a less democratic society except the speed is usually slower, although there must be exceptions like the AK47 rifle. History has already confirmed that in the main the advance of engineering in the democratic world is always faster than a less democratic one unless you are talking about isolated examples.

 

[PSE]

Democracy is a political process/ideology. Other than beauracrats, it is unlikely to breed anything. It is likely however, to allow individuals greater leeway to explore their personal or professional development.

Capitalism is an economic process/ideology. It allows (theoretically) the market to determine one's success or failure.

I think that personal excellence is independent of either politics or economics for an individual (assuming that equivalent opportunity exists). Perhaps overall there is a lower signal to noise ratio in a democratic society (greater opportunity for all) making the standouts harder to find.

Regards,

 

[TheTick]

Democracy takes the task of stamping out all sparks of creativity and originality away from the government and hands that task over to the masses.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

 

[arunmrao]

Historically you can find the developments which took place under Hitler, erstwhile Soviet Union and East European countries, and to this day in China, N Vietnam it is astounding. True the creativity is in the hands of these governments.
Whilst in a democracy the bureaucrats stifle progress or administer the wrong policies .This meets their personal agenda also their mentor's(read politicians).

Individually too distraction or slackness exists as there are no pressures to excel.

 

[MintJulep]

As posed, your postulation is very ambiguous. What is "a democratic climate"? What is "excellence"?

Take for example the two democrocies of India and pre-China take-over Hong Kong.

In India the democratic beaurocracy imposes significant restraints, in the form of necessary permits and fees, on the ability to start a small buisness. The Hong Kong government impsosed far fewer constraints on potential buisness developers. The result is that Hong Kong spurred more potential economic development because it was easy to start, while India's economy is more stagnant.

 

[arunmrao]

I am from India and i run a small business unit. Most of the activities are now delicensed and trade is quite free. But preliberalisation period it was difficult.

 

[Bbird]

Hey am I not glad to fire the warning shot to state that my response is only good for the engineering excellence in a democratic society.

The argument can be very different if the excellence is in economics and commercial success.

 

[MintJulep]

Ok, here is another example:

Taiwan is a democracy in that the legislative and executive branches of government are directly elected.

However students entering college are not allowed to freely choose which school they will go to, or what they will study (at least this was true about 10 years ago, may have changed now). Positions were handed out based on the results of a nationalized college entrance exam.

If you scored well in math and physics you could be given a spot in an engineering or technical school. Doesn't matter if you want to be an engineer. If you want to study music, too bad, no music student spots avaiable to you, you can have this engineering spot, or do your compulsory military service now and try again later.

This could be considered as promoting a path to excellence, as it sound reasonable that students who test well in math and physics would make good engineers.

Or it could be considered as a path to resentment, as this policy may prevent YOU from doing what you want.

 

[corus]

MintJulep describes the system that operates in the UK and probably many other countries. You study certain subjects and are allowed further studies in those subjects you are good at. You're not allowed to go to the University you chose but apply to Universities. These Universities chose you if you meet their standards. After studying maths you can not suddenly say I want to study music. There will be no places for you in music school because there are more able people who can fill those available places, and rightly so.
As far as the political climate of a country goes. I think it matters little in any modern country for excellence to develop. Most of the best mathematicians in the world come from the old Sovet Union and India. Similarly there are many of the best writers, composers, engineers who came from the old soviet union. Similarly those that developed the space program came from fascist germany. These may be isolated examples but isn't excellence, by its nature, isolated examples?

 

[Bbird]

I am amazed by Corus and Mintjulep posts. It is universal that students compete higher educational opportunities with their academic achievements. In a real life situation can anyone go to work for a company of his choice and disregard the fact that company doesn’t want him because a better candidate is already been hired? Is there any sense for a music school to take on a student excel in maths but can’t read music and never play an instrument before or to force an artist to study electrical engineering instead of arts? Surely it is up to the applicant to prepare the necessary qualification demanded by the relevant course instead of a free-for-all.

The tennis champions do not start playing the game when they are 25. Many started as soon as they could hold a racket. Thus there is no point to force a talented musician to do engineering if he or she already ahead of everybody in music by working on it at a tender age. I can’t talk about the Taiwan system as I know nothing about it (except it leads the world in PC components) but in UK one can’t go to a famous music school unless one can demonstrate some solid achievement in music.

Life is just a big competition and people who can learn from their mistakes and work hard will eventually outperform the others and be given responsible positions and important duties. It is the same in every society. It is the same at every age. People who can’t prove themselves but want to be successful can continue with their dreams.

Every country has its own education system and the consequence will take years to show itself. Many of the examples quoted by Corus were originated from good education systems. Japan is a good example. Their engineering flourished before (monarch system) and after (democratic) the World War two but in my contact with them I would suggest it has a lot to do with the way education is treated in their country. The education here includes both in school and from family.

Opportunity is needed for any excellence. With all due respect there could be difficulties for Monte Carlo to become the world leader in aerospace research (for lack of land and big funding) or for Bahrain to dominate downhill skiing in the winter Olympic (for being in hot climate never has any snow).

 

[GregLocock]

I've got to agree. Corus' 'explanation' of the UK university system is absurd. If you want to study music and maths at uni in the UK you can. My sister did.

I really don't understand what the original poster is angling at unless he wants to start working for a totalitarian regime. Demonstrably most effective innovations are made in capitalist/democratic societies.

Here's a list of some of the inflential products of the last century. How many of these were brought to fruition in the first instance by non democratic/capitalist societies?

Cars
washing machines
refrigeration
telephones
mains electricity
television
mainframe computers
microchips
PCs

By my quick count: NONE




Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[TheTick]

You overlooked jet engines and rockets.

 

[JAE]

arunmrao
Hitler had the benefit of quite a more free society allowing the development of engineering talent prior to his tyranny. He just rode the wave that had started.

 

[corgum]

Democracy and capitalism breed opportunity, including the opportunity for excellence to flourish and prevail.

Excellence dwells in the human spirit and will show itself even in non-democratic states; however, the most repressive regimes can suppress even the spirit of men and produce only pre-medieval misery. Unfortunately, such places still exist in the 21st century.

 

[ChrisatEastAg]

Broadly speaking, 'open' societies throw people into the river and say "You should learn to swim, or else you may drown". 'Represive regimes' drag people to the riverbank and say "learn to swim or else I'll drown you!". The end result is the same.
So what are the implications for engineering?
Inovation is a large part of engineering excellence, but by no means the only part. Sure, an individual's or organisation's imagination will be enhanced by their being allowed to be creative, but other factors contribute.
Educational systems seem to be independant of political ideologies, soviet science was always highly regarded.
The respect of society for an engineer's work is arguably higher (based on previous forum postings)in many non-anglo countries.
Financial rewards are higher in the West.
The quality and attitude of the work-force to excellence. This was the bane of soviet-era Eastern Europe, and of post-war England. (Do Jaguar doorhandles still fall off?)
The availability of capital. In market economies you could maybe prove commercial viability, but a project of benefit to the State will get you funding anywhere.
Free flow of information. Before we in the West get too self-congratulatory about this, think about your country's intellectual property laws, commercial confidentiality, academic jealousies, "possible military applications"...

I believe that the best engineering is done by those working for the love of the project at hand. All else is relevant only insofar as it impinges on that particular project.

Regarding the inclusion of 'cars' on GregLocock's list, how democratic was nineteenth century Germany?
To expand 'engineering' from just 'invention', any list of the world's most impressive current engineering projects would have to have the Chinese Five Rivers dam at or near the top.

 

[corgum]

ChrisatEastAg,

I can't find anything on a search for a five rivers dam, but perhaps you meant the Chinese Three Gorges Dam. Unfortunately, it is already being reviled as a disaster waiting to happen. It's elevation to a list of the world's most impressive projects would be technically correct, but its impressiveness may well turn out to be the scope of its human and environmental damage rather than its enormous bulk.

The history forum at this site has a thread on this dam.

 

[pennpoint]

arunmrao;
Are you kidding?
Excuse me but I cannot tell where your from? Maybe outside the USA? //"Does Democracy breed excellence"//
You bet your sweet ass it does. But more than that, it's components of free enterprise or capatilization is what makes this country, the USA (or Democracy) what it is.
You only have to look at the list:
GregLocock List's
Cars
washing machines
refrigeration
telephones
mains electricity
television
mainframe computers
microchips
PCs
I will add, no sequence.
The Transister
Mass assembly (Ford)
lightbulb
rubber
flight
Materials
supersonic flight
lazer technology
nano technology
Vacuum technology
Medical Technology

Are you asking weather this could be done if a dictator was in power. I think not.
What we have here is a system that has worked for more than 227 years, longer than any other type of government by the people system. (We will not split threads about the manarcs) Even still they are a democracy. I digress,.
Here in the USA where this year, 100 years of flight is being acknowlaged, The WEB, Data aquisition/control, Outer Space Infrared Telescopic Recepiton, High thrust jet engines, Critical alloys used in jet propulsion, chemical etching, Vacuum deposits, cristal/silicon growth. many, many more that I cannot name.
Would these inventions or discoveries/developments have been evolved in a society DIFFRENT from this? I think not.
If you are in the USA, I hope you appricate what oppertunities you have here and what you can achieve here if you apply yourself, its really up to you. We want you to succeed it helps us all to gain.
I'll ask you where is the patent office in Pakistan and Irac, what was the last patent they issued (if any). What knowledge did they develope that is contributing to a better life.

I Wish You Well

pennpoint

 

[corus]

Iraq was the place where civilisation began and they invented writing, of which without either you would never have had cars etc.
Pakistan or India to be more exact invented algebra, trigonometry, were the first to discover how the planets moved, invented chemical processes, dyes, and chemical colours, and were the first to theorise about gravity.
All of these things have contributed to a better life for the world, with the possible exception of algebra.

 

[Bbird]

arunmrao

One of the problem here is the use of English by different nationals.

Is it possible that you mean "More democracy is better for excellence?" or could you be think along the line "Does less bueaurcracy or state control bleed excellence?"

It is a pretty much a clear cut case that the democracy bleed excellence faster in quantities than any non-democractic system, although some may still argue that this may not be always true in quality. One can always regard the discovery of fire is more important than the invention of computer.