Duty to Warn 3

[Forensic74]

When you observe a condition of imminent structural collapse (keep it simple, say residential or simple commercial/industrial structures) even if the owner is not your client you obviously have to notify the owner. What methods do you take to do this? Verbal method is a good start but wont necessarily hold up in court if they ever come back at you, so it's a good idea to follow up via mail. However, how crazy do you need to get with this? Does it need to be sent with a signature of the addressee required upon delivery, or would a simple priority mail tracking number suffice? A lot of times, certified mail and restricted delivery items never gets picked up from the post office.

 

[msquared48]

If it is as bad as you suggest, I have would write a letter to the local building department, and follow it up in a week or two with a personal visit to the chief structural supervisor.

Contacting the owner first would be a nice courtesy, but I do not trust owners in general to do their due diligence.

Another avenue to contact would be the insurance company for the structure, if you could find out what company that was.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[MacGyverS2000]

What are we talking about... are you walking along the street and see something really bad in a neighboring building, or are you the EOR on a project and see something bad while working elsewhere on the property?

If it's the former, I would think a vocal notice is good enough (along with a brief explanation of what the problem/consequence is). If it's the latter, well, I think everything in writing with signatures is the best course of action.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[H57]

I was involved in a project where we were asked to provide a conditional assessment of a facility for a potential owner (my assessment was limited to observations only). As part of our review we walked through a building that would be shared by our client and several others. This building was jointly owned and used. There were serious structural issues with this building and in my opinion it posed a danger to the general public. In that instance I drafted a letter and sent it to all parties indicating that they needed to immediately stop use and hire an engineer. If action had not been taken in one week, I would be contacting the building department. The next day I was contacted by the city building inspector asking for a copy of my letter. The city proceeded to shut the building down.

I was later told they held an emergency meeting of the owners, and an attorney, the night after receiving my letter. It was decided that they were not going to do anything other than post signs saying enter at your own risk. Luckily one of the owners did not agree and contacted the city himself, thus them calling me asking for a copy.

Somewhat of a long story, but if I saw something as bad as this building, even if I wasn't hired to do any kind of a review, I would feel compelled to contact the owners. If they don't act immediately, I would contact the city.

 

[Forensic74]

Maybe I should have worded the title differently. My question is simple, what method is considered proper to transmit your warning? If you send a letter regular mail or even regular tracking, can it be argued that your warning never got to the owner?

 

[JohnRBaker]

That's what registered mail, with a return receipt request, is for. In that case both YOU and the Postal Service will have a record that the letter was received and signed for.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[SLTA]

I email a copy and then either hand it to them in person (in front of witnesses) or send it by certified mail.

 

[DRWeig]

With apologies to the ex-president, it depends on your definition of "imminent." To me, that word merits a call to the local fire department. They can get the people out and contact the building officials for follow-up, and it's out of your hands.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

 

[casseopeia]

I have to agree with DRWeig. The phrase 'imminent danger' suggests the need for immediate action. In my CERT class this week, we covered this topic. We were advised to call 911 for any type of hazardous emergency, imminent collapse, fire, electrical hazard, suspected gas leak, etc. Emergency calls to 911 are recorded and I would think available as a public record. If you have a smart phone, a record of that call should be there. You could probably even record your call at the same time with some phones.

Funny this question should come up, though. Duty to inform is a topic that I have been talking to my labor attorney about a lot lately. Sorry I can't give any details right now and in the meantime I'll keep blowing my whistle when the need arises.



If you are offended by the things I say, imagine the stuff I hold back.

 

[debodine]

I am not a lawyer, but I agree with JohnRBaker as I have read in a number of industry publications that registered mail is the only method of mail delivery that will almost always be found to be acceptable as proof in a court of law. However, let me repeat, I am not a lawyer.

 

[Forensic74]

Thanks debodine, I suppose I should have just ask an attorney in the first place. Based on some new sources, I think any form of mail that requires the signature of the recipient(s) is what is needed. Registered mail is fine, however, it does require time to go to the post office while priority mail with restricted delivery can be done right from your desk. Time is money, hence the reason i asked.

The term "imminent" can refer to small scale issues, such as a rotted out roof rafter beam, or a leaning basement wall...not necessarily worth calling 911 for; however, good idea to cover your butt by notifying the homeowner in writing so they dont come back at you (claiming you didn't tell them of this risk) if it fails after a year and causes damage to their property.

 

[racookpe1978]

Moral responsibility and timeliness and legal (how to I prove I told the owner/businesses involved?) all come into play.

Much depends on the imminent hazard and type of hazard. For example, a rusting-through pin or failing girder on a highway bridge or under a stadium in an earthquake zone are much higher criteria needing immediate action than a rusting bridge girder on a railroad track not used for 12 years..

 

[woodman88]

Personally, I do not see how any mail is any good. It comes down to just your statement of what was in it. Even if you have a lawyer involved or notarized it. I would e-mail the building department and try to cc the owner. At least the building department e-mail address is public knowledge and you have an electric copy of what was sent.
But then, I never had this type of situation come up.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[brandonbw]

How are you involved in something like this and what are you seeing? If its important I would send certified mail and at the same time scan that and CC whoever needs to know.

In this new world posting this on facebook and twitter is probably better than anything. I wish I was kidding.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer

http://bwengr.com

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http://bwstructuralengineer.com

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http://bwcivilengineer.com

 

[DDBPE]

I would start with verbal to the owner to get someones attention right away. Followed up by a letter referencing your verbal conversation with details. The letter would be certified, but before sending, I would scan and e-mail an advanced copy. This letter and email would also be sent to the building department.
If someone is in danger, you should not wait for the mail, and make sure more than one person is notified (owner and building department).