Educated Opinions on Climate change - a denouement or a hoax? 25

[GregLocock]

The US government runs a large social security system. Some of the inmates make license plates, some make cars to put them on. (yes that was a joke)



Cheers

Greg Locock

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[southard2]

When money is at stake people are capable of anything. I really don't know if global warming is man made or natural. I don't know if warming will be a net good or a net bad. I don't know is the associate of rising carbon dioxide and temperatures is just an association or a causattion.

What I do no is that those who highly favor government power and control love the issue. I listened to Mikhail Gorbachev live in a speach go on and on about how global warming was a big reason why (I'm paraphrasing here) Socialism should be looked at again, etc, etc... The point is that for socialist global warming has long been a favorite topic.

Bottom line is if you want more grants and research money your results had better support the importance of your existence.

I still believe that conservation, recycling, and using resources as efficiently as possible only makes good economic sense. Economics and a sustainable planet really do go hand in hand. After all does it make sense to cut down a forest and not replant? You have to keep buying more and more land otherwise!



John Southard, M.S., P.E.

http://www.pdhlibrary.com

 

[cranky108]

Did anyone see the article in the druge report about the climate summit?
1200 limos, 140 privite planes and caviar wedges, "We haven't got enough limos in the country to fulfil the demand"

Sort of hypicratical that they want us the people to cut back, and they can't even carpool from the airport, or share a limo.

Which is a good part of why I oppose cutting my carbon foot print, it apperently dosen't apply to everyone.

 

[NomLaser]

Yeah I read that on another site and agree. Did you see that there isn't enough room at the airport for everyone's private planes so they have to fly them to other area airports after they drop off their passengers?

 

[GregLocock]

Cajun Centurion. My point was that even with european fuel taxes as high as they are, they weren't enough to make an expensive 60 mpg car attractive. They would need to be higher.



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Greg Locock

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[cranky108]

At some income level the cost of gas dosen't matter. At some cost, people won't buy new cars.
So where exactly does the demand curve for 60MPG cars cross the price curve? Likely at the current cost of such cars, there won't be much demand at any gas price.

More likely people will find alternitives, to buying 60MPG cars.
The law of unintended events predicts we won't like the outcome.

 

[GregLocock]

magic carpets? roller skates?

Seriously, what makes you think that customers are not rational?

Thus far I'd say they've been reasonably predictable. When the price of gas goes up they switch to smaller cars.



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Greg Locock

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[cranky108]

For example, you might be right to a point. But as cars become more expencive, car thefts will go up. The law of unintended events happens.

Anytime you make something more valuable, cars, or gas, you will increase crime, and the cost of insurance.

No thank you, I'll keep my $1000 used car, and save the other $19000 to buy gas with.

 

[rb1957]

"The law of unintended events" ? ... sounds like something Douglas Adams would have written about ...

 

[kawh1]

Debating climate change is completely missing the point. Passing enough legislations to curb emissions without overstepping government boundaries will not be possible.

Do we want to live in a world where government establishes the amount of emissions that is allowed to raise a cow, transport it to the slaughter house and then to the supermarket? How do you allocate allowable emissions between different industries? Human behavior is what causes greenhouse gases. The two methods to control human behavior is either to tax or outright ban that behavior with threat of incarceration.

While the American EPA had success in reducing emissions and protecting the environment, it has also overstepped its mandated powers. The EPA shouldn't have the ability to put the country's economy to a grinding halt through its decisions, but it does. There's also the danger of putting environmental extremists into power. You can't vote the EPA out, and disputes are settled in a courthouse nightmare.

Then we have third world countries like Brazil, who are demanding that developed nations pay money in order to prevent deforestation in the Amazon. Those hungry and jobless people in the rainforest aren't thinking so much of global warming as much as clearing land to grow food.

The Copenhagen climate summit is nothing more than a photo op for politicians. Not only are they incapable of identifying a problem, there is no way of enforcing emissions control on a grand scale. Not without adverse impact on farming, livestock raising, international trade and manufacturing.

The greatest threat stemming from the climate change meeting is that of national sovereignty. The majority of U.S. citizens don't want their lives impacted by decisions made between foreign countries, and decided in Copenhagen. We have enough in the population who are upset by decisions made in Washington D.C.

There's no more incentive for environmental stewardship than people not wanting to trash where they live, most people anyway - there's no need for the tear jerk reaction of polar bears drowning.

 

[KENAT]

"The greatest threat stemming from the climate change meeting is that of national sovereignty. The majority of U.S. citizens don't want their lives impacted by decisions made between foreign countries, and decided in Copenhagen. We have enough in the population who are upset by decisions made in Washington D.C. "

Hang on, what is this, the interwar period? Have I time travelled back to the 20's/30's and isolationism? Don't get me wrong, when I was a Brit I wasn't a big fan of Brussels telling me how straight my cucumber had to be etc. but isolationism was arguable one of the causes of the 2nd world war, do we really want to go there again?

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[NomLaser]

The idea of a Global Governance is silly then throw in the socialist ideas of spreading the wealth to developing nations so that developed nations' economies go in the tank is absurd. There will be another revolution in the US if that ever comes about.

 

[kawh1]

"Hang on, what is this, the interwar period? Have I time travelled back to the 20's/30's and isolationism? Don't get me wrong, when I was a Brit I wasn't a big fan of Brussels telling me how straight my cucumber had to be etc. but isolationism was arguable one of the causes of the 2nd world war, do we really want to go there again?"

My statement is suggesting that state rights trumps federal interference as outlined in the U.S. Constitution. During the Bush presidency, California sued the EPA for not allowing the state to set its own auto emissions standards. This case isn't about moral high ground in enforcing more stringent emissions regulations, but a question of state rights. Conveniently, since the EPA recently granted California the rights to set emissions standards until 2012, all 16 states in the lawsuit forgets it was a state right.

Fast forward to yesterday and the EPA's announcement that greenhouse gases are harmful and they have the authority to regulate it. The EPA shouldn't have the final authority in economic matters. There's no checks and balances. It's a government monster that used to provide for the public good that has now run amuck.

Add states that talk about secession, one civil war about state rights, and one war for independence; which will explain why there's a strong resentment - felt by a section of the population - over domestic, state issues being influenced internationally that have no right to be done so. Well, there's a war or two in the Middle East, but who says history is without irony.

You could have isolationism the other way around. Suppose the climate change bill increases manufacturing costs at home, and companies decide to offshore jobs. There's the possibility of more trade tariffs being imposed. It has already happened with Chinese tires.

 

[rb1957]

"how straight my cucumber had to be" ... that just goes to so many Wrong places !!

 

[TPL]

What would happen if we woke up one day to find that XXX was proven not to exist?

For XXX substitute either

a) God
b) AGW

Is there a difference? Both are based on faith or belief and both have many adherents making a damned good living out of that belief.

More evidence please (of either or both)

 

[cranky108]

Well god has a book, AGW has a movie. So do you prefer wine, or popcorn?

And the book of god tells of helping the poor, where the movie of AWG tells of making the poor poorer.

 

[KENAT]

Careful Cranky, the book of God (by the way which one, I'm guessing you mean AV Bible or something like that) also talks about sacrificing your daughter and the like.

It's dangerous enough discussing 'climate change' (or whatever your preferred term is), now we've added 'states rights' and you've added religion.

What next, someone going to come in with something about how an agreement at Copenhagen might infringe second amendment rights by putting controls on the combustion byproducts of propellant.

That should really have the John Birch/Michigan Militia bunch wound up.

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[SomptingGuy]

I challenge the members here to locate Copenhagen on a map of the World with no political boundaries or other clues.

- Steve

 

[rb1957]

sure, it's just at the base of the sticking-out bit (commonly called denmark) on the south shore of the baltic at the west end (the entrance) (on the west side) ...
and the baltic is the sea north of europe (mainland) that makes sweden look like ... well you know ...

 

[jmw]

Good point though, are you allowed o grow your own cucumbers now and eat them?
The ones you grow will be curved, the supermarket cucumbers are straight but for the life of me, I can't remember why this was an issue for legislation.
But when some government starts legislating the shape of vegetables you know your in trouble.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com