Encouraging women to enroll in engineering 28

[cbiber]

Another spin-off from the "Boot camp" thread in this forum --

It's pretty clear that by and large, most engineering fields have a low percentage of females. In my experience, the percentage gets lower as the people get older. In fact, many of my female engineering school colleagues aren't engineers anymore.

Some specific topics to discuss:
-- why aren't girls interested in enrolling in engineering?
-- why do they drop out of engineering programs (do they do so at a disproportionate rate?)
-- how can girls be encouraged to pursue engineering?

In my area, there's a "Saturday Academy" with specific classes to address some of this; there's also an organization called AWSEM for middle school girls (I'll have to post the links later). Other ideas?

Cathy Biber

Biber Thermal Design

http://www.biberthermal.com

 

[Maui]

Dporte and ScottyUK, I believe that sex, race, religeous affiliation, etc. should not be factors in the selection of a candidate for a given position. But these are precisely the criteria used by affirmative action to achieve the required quotas. I agree it is ironic that our policymakers have worked toward the goal of reducing discrimination in the workplace by implementing the same discriminatory practices that they deplore. It doesn't make much sense, does it?


Maui

 

[chris9]

A good example is fire fighters. In the UK the physical tests new applicants have to pass are relaxed for women to give them a chance. Recruiters are under immense pressure to reach targets.

Not much reassurance for heavier people who need to be carried down a ladder to escape a burning building!

 

[HgTX]

There's nothing wrong with observing the advantages of a system. There are some advantages to being a female engineer. It's not about batting eyelashes and showing cleavage, it's about being unusual and therefore memorable. If there are four of us saying clever things in a meeting, no one will necessarily remember who exactly said what--except for me, because more often than not I'm the only female in the room, and so people remember. People who met me once will usually remember me the next time, so it's easier for me to cultivate professional relationships.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I hope more women don't come in to lose me my advantage, and I don't think that's what anyone else on this thread meant, but I certainly don't mind having the advantage. It makes up for "Aww...do you need help adjusting your hardhat?" Or having my substantial wordsmithing of a major document be characterized as "keeping everyone in line and making the copies" while the guy who developed the word-processing template for the headers and margins was given credit for "handling the writing".

To those who feel that as long as there is no discrimination we shouldn't look at demographics--those numbers may or may not be a symptom of something wrong at an earlier stage than the hiring process. I don't believe there's enough biological difference between men and women to account for the differences in professions, and that there's a pattern in girls' upbringing that leads them to choose (of their own otherwise free will) fields other than engineering.

I think a lot of boys wind up going to engineering school as a default option, not because they're necessarily drawn to it. (How many high school students really understand what engineers do? I didn't.) Engineering isn't the default option for girls. Girls have to be a lot more actively interested in it to wind up there.

Hg

 

[havesealwilltravel]

I’ve followed this thread for some time.

I’d like to add my opinion.

Judging by my children (I’ll admit it is a small sample of the total population), girls take a career decision more seriously than boys do. My daughter researched many different careers and picked the one she felt was best. She chose Pharmacy.

She was interested in Environmental Engineering and even applied to an Engineering School and would have received a generous scholarship. She rejected Engineering due to the lower pay, the job instability and the projections of limited growth.

My sons did very little research and went into medicine for vague reasons (largely my encouragement). They did little research.

I don’t believe that stereotypes keep women from going into Engineering. They entered other traditionally male fields in large numbers and had great success. The career prospects keep them from going into Engineering. The stereotypes, however, do keep boys going into Engineering. Boys mature later than girls. A high school girl is better able to make career decisions than a boy. A boy is more reactive in his decisions.

If Engineering had more to offer, women would flock to the profession. (Actually Engineering is more a series of jobs than a profession.) Women are intelligent and are making informed rational career decisions. It would be wrong to try to indoctrinate them to go into Engineering. We need to change Engineering to attract women.

To address the questions asked in the first contribution to this thread:

-- why aren't girls interested in enrolling in engineering?

Women are pursuing careers with more promise.

-- why do they drop out of engineering programs (do they do so at a disproportionate rate?)

Women are coming to an “epiphany” as to the true nature of Engineering and are switching to a more desirable career.

-- how can girls be encouraged to pursue engineering?

Improve the prospects of Engineering. If engineering offered comparable pay, job security, professional status and was a growing field, women would enter the field in large numbers.

 

[chris9]

Hg,

You said.

‘I don't believe there's enough biological difference between men and women to account for the differences in professions, and that there's a pattern in girls' upbringing that leads them to choose (of their own otherwise free will) fields other than engineering.’

I disagree; it’s nothing to do with upbringing and has everything to do with physical and biological differences. For some reason it seems to be politically incorrect to talk about differences in race and sex.

I watched a program on the discovery channel that showed men and women’s brains are physically different and not just different sizes.

Why are all the best racing drivers men?
Why are all the best heavyweight boxers black?
Why are all the best snooker players white?

Wouldn’t it make more sense to discourage selective recruitment based on race and sex and instead encourage people develop whatever talents they were born with.

 

[samv]

Chris9 :

While I do agree that selective recruitment based on race and sex is not right - I do not agree that society has yet reached the point where the difference in women and men's behaviour is simply due to biological differences. I strongly believe that women still shy away from the male dominated hands on careers because they were less encouraged to use their hands (and brains) to build things as children (and even as young adults). Rather than toy hammers and legos the overwhelming majority of girls had (and still have from what I've seen) dolls and strollers etc.

 

[Lorentz]

Hello All!

I agree with you completely dannym.

Comparing young women to young men, I would have to say that the young men tend to have a less realistic view of the world.

I also think that the education of young boys includes more manipulation - if not outright "brainwashing" - designed to make them more competitive and as a consequence more controllable. They are easy prey for unscrupulous recruiters and will eagerly jump at "pie in the sky" promises that that most young women would see right through.

 

[chris9]

Men have evolved over thousands of years to be the competitive and women have evolved to be more social. Engineering requires good spatial judgement so does hunting prey.

Men and women are very different, have different tastes and different choices of career. Why try to change human nature?

 

[HgTX]

Oh, okay...so if I don't like makeup and other girly things and instead prefer to hang around in a hardhat, that means there's something wrong with me?

I'll tell you why it's un-PC to talk about biological differences between men and women. Because once such a difference is declared to be normal, those of us who fall on the wrong side will have been declared to be abnormal.

 

[Maui]

Dannym, well said. But I believe that you may have oversimplified the situation. In your post you state that," Women are intelligent and are making informed rational career decisions." I do not dispute this. But you seem to imply that men are not as intelligent as their female counterparts, and are not making rational career decisions. I have taught an engineering course for the last 7 consecutive years at Syracuse University, and have not been able to discern the differences that you state between the sexes. The women that I encounter who study engineering do so because they are drawn to it for the same reasons that the men are drawn to it - they enjoy it. It represents a challenge to their intellect to solve difficult problems. And engineers enjoy a challenge. The career aspects of the profession do not really come into consideration until the last two years of the educational process, unless they have a mentor such as yourself who can provide them with the benefit of your experience. Perhaps your children are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[chris9]

HgTx,

This topic is supposed to be about why women don't like engineering, not about what is normal or abnormal. I was merely pointing out that physical and biological differences are one the main factors of career choice.

 

[havesealwilltravel]

Maui,

I'm sure that I simplified it. Also, I admitted that I only have 3 kids to judge by.

However, I am convinced that women enter into a career choice far more informed than men. From the kids I’ve known, (admittedly me and my friends and my kids and their friends), girls take a career choice more seriously. They project further into the future, to the time when they are older and raising a family, etc. They research, talk, shadow professionals, etc. It is an indisputable fact that women, in general, mature earlier than men. At 17 to 18 years of age this “maturity gap” is pretty significant. I’m speaking of maturity, not intelligence.

There is no substitute for intelligence, just as there is no cure for stupidity. Intelligence and stupidity are evenly distributed through both the male and female populations. Maturity at the time of high school graduation is sharply skewed toward the female population.

If 30 years ago, engineering was the same as it is now I hope I would have been smart enough to pick something a better profession. I enjoy engineering. I hate the low pay (relative to other professions), the low respect and the job insecurity.

If the prospects for engineering were better, women would be attracted to engineering. As it is the best and the brightest are pursuing more promising futures.

In general,

Some people seem to imply that males are better suited to be engineers. I don’t agree. I’ve known good women engineers and bad women engineers. Likewise, I’ve known good men engineers and bad men engineers.

I think women are discouraged by career prospects in engineering relative to other professions.

 

[chris9]

'I think women are discouraged by career prospects in engineering relative to other professions'.

I think men and women are discouraged by the career prospects. In the UK women are actively encouraged to become engineers by the professional institutions, universities and business. This has little effect on increasing numbers, everyone has their own theories but the trends of the general population speak for themselves. For the record the few female engineers I have met were often chosen for promotion and were amongst the best in the company.

If men are not indeed better suited to a career in engineering (general population not individual cases) then where are all the women engineers?

 

[samv]

Chris9 - Some women that would like to be engineers are turned off by exactly that kind of attitude - that men are better suited to be engineers. In the engineering world, women must integrate in an environment that is built and managed mostly by men. All men need to truly believe that women in general are just as well suited as men to be engineers to create a welcoming environment for the technicaly inclined ladies.

 

[RDK]

Not all men I have met, be they engineers or not, were well suited to be engineers.

Gender may make a person better or worse suited for a profession. Social differences because of gender may also make a person better or worse suited for any profession.

This still does not make all people of one gender suitable or unsuitable for any profession.

All it does is make it a greater chance that any one gender will dominate a profession.

I have known good women engineers and good male nurses. In any specific case gender should not matter as long as the person has the necessary other qualities necessary for the profession.






Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[chris9]

Samv,

In my experience this is already the case. The engineering environment is very welcoming for women. I have the utmost respect for women engineers and as far as I’m aware women engineers are admired by both sexes both within engineering and outside engineering. There are reasons why men dominate the engineering profession and women dominate nursing and like it or not gender makes a difference. People on this thread keep quoting individual cases but I am talking about the general majority.

Do you think women in general are better suited to nursing than men?

 

[samv]

Many engineering companies are rightfully called "boys clubs", and females will never succeed in these environments. And, several smallish companies have only men working there, and a female walking into one of these shops will often, if nothing else, be undiscreetly eyeballed in all the wrong places.

In my opinion, the engineering environment is NOT "very welcoming to women" - only certain modern engineering companies of a certain size could be describe as "welcoming".

And no, I do not think we should believe in ANY sweeping generalization of what sexes and races should be better at. It needs to be left to each individual to decide for him or herself.

I will add that I know of men who have gone thru difficulties in integrating in the nursing environment because of "unwelcoming" women - yes it must go both ways.

 

[chris9]

Your experience about the engineering environment is very different to mine; maybe this is because I have always worked for larger companies. Perhaps a more important question, does it matter that one sex dominates a particular industry? I really can’t see any benefit in attempting to control this by selective recruiting based partially on gender or race to meet targets. If anyone thinks it is important to recruit more male nurses then in my opinion this is sexist because this implies that gender is an important factor to be considered.

Other industries do in fact make sweeping generalisations particularly insurance. I pay higher motor insurance premiums because I am male, no other reason.

 

[samv]

The reason it matters is that when an industry is heavily dominated by one kind (sex or race) of person... it often makes it difficult for people of another kind to succeed.

Selective recruiting to meet targets based on sex or race is not the answer, however... in the short term it is a method that will help tip the scale.
A better method in my opinion is to work with young people to help them make career choices that suit their true personality, and, should this choice be an "uncommon" one -arm them with some resources and tools to help them get past the hurdles and deal with the issues big or small.

 

[davefitz]

I have worked for one large engineering company that rarely would interview women applicaints and neraly never hire any, and a meidum size engineering company which had actively sought out and hired an equal number of women engineers.

In terms of opportunities for women, it seems to be entirely up to the management of the company; I have seen both extremes. In the first case, the management would not interview any women ( or any other minorities) for any engineering jobs because tehy were given to the legal opinion that if they interviewed the minority but did not hire them, they would be sued for discrimination, and they thought best way to avoid such a suit was to refuse to interview such persons. In this interpretation , the opportunities for women and minorities was dierctly reduced by laws which were originally meant to imrpove the opportunities.

In the cae where the company actively sought out women and minorities, they perfomed as wel as any other engineer would , and the atmosphere was healthier.