Engineer charged in roof collapse 8

[a2mfk]

This guy sounds like he was telling the client what they wanted to hear, instead of the truth, and knew very well the roof was in bad shape. If this is proven to be true, then throw the book at him. Also, with something of this much importance, why this wasn't all in writing is very suspicious in and of itself. Even if I discover problems with a structure accidentally, I disclose this in writing to the owner and the building department.

 

[hokie66]

a2mfk,
The Algo Centre Mall collapse in Elliot Lake has been the subject of much discussion here. If you search the site, you will find several threads, including links to the public enquiry, which took many months.

 

[a2mfk]

Thanks Hokie, surprised I just discovered the story.

 

[steellion]

The lesson as always: don't put a client's wishes ahead of your own ethics. Don't risk your entire reputation (and potentially your freedom) to make money on one project.

 

[msquared48]

Yes. Being Mr. Nice Guy does not always bode well for your pocketbook, or reputation.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[WARose]

Makes me feel better about the times I’ve had to stand up and say “no way”……and get grilled for it. A lot of times the contractor will have the client’s ear and he’ll tell him all sorts of stuff that’s just baloney.

Even worse can be the internal pressures in some organizations to green light some things. I’ve had it out with a few project managers over stuff like this before.

 

[Archie264]

Maybe it's a good time to quote this:

THE careful text-books measure
(Let all who build beware!)
The load, the shock, the pressure
Material can bear.
So, when the buckled girder
Lets down the grinding span,
'The blame of loss, or murder,
Is laid upon the man.
Not on the Stuff - the Man!

(From Hymn of Breaking Strain by Rudyard Kipling)

 

[BAretired]

It appears that the engineer was browbeaten by the owner into changing his report to facilitate financing. Had this not been the case, he would honestly have reported that the structure was at risk of collapse and needed repair.

I have never felt comfortable giving a structural report on a building indicating that everything looks okay (even if it does) because it is always possible to miss something during an inspection. The fee simply cannot be adequate to compensate for the liability. For that reason, as a small consultant, I always tried to avoid that type of project.

BA

 

[Archie264]

BA,

I refer to that as switching occupations from being an engineer to being an insurance company (not insurance agent). For a few hours worth of fee the engineer becomes liable for anything that might happen to the building. That's not engineering; that's insurance. And it's not worth it.

 

[BAretired]

Yes indeed, Archie. That is the way I look at it too.

BA

 

[Archie264]

Whoever it was that like that poem pasted above might also like this one, Cold Iron, also from Kipling. I've got the first stanza pasted to the inside of my steel book and here it is pasted below. Just a little engineering verse, I suppose. The full poem contains a surprise ending, fyi.

"GOLD is for the mistress - silver for the maid -
Copper for the craftsman cunning at his trade!"
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,
But Iron - Cold Iron - is master of them all."

 

[WARose]

I have never felt comfortable giving a structural report on a building indicating that everything looks okay (even if it does) because it is always possible to miss something during an inspection. The fee simply cannot be adequate to compensate for the liability. For that reason, as a small consultant, I always tried to avoid that type of project.

I worked with a guy who always had some weasel words (in the report) to get out of that (something along the lines of: we just looked at what we were alerted to...yadda yadda). I love disclaimers.

 

[Archie264]

BA, I used to get about one of those requests per week. I would turn them down as politely as possible.

 

[BAretired]

When I mentioned my policy to another consulting engineer, his comment was..."We always do a thorough inspection and charge an appropriate fee". While I admire his courage, I didn't change my policy.

BA

 

[Archie264]

It's easy money. Write a quick report and collect a fee. No hard work done. The down side is, though, that there might come a day when the other party expects to collect a fee just as quickly...and that one will be MUCH larger...

Insurance is a legitimate line of business where such risks are pooled and offset. An engineer's not in a position to do that. It's a foolish thing to play with.

 

[hokie66]

Not that I disagree with BA and Archie, but there is a flip side. If building inspections are not done by qualified engineers, then who?

Adequately formulated disclaimers are essential, as it is impossible to report on what cannot be seen.

 

[BAretired]

Hokie, I agree with you but the problem is that the owners are often looking for a report to satisfy the bank or lending agency which is funding the purchase of a building. The owner feels the building is okay as it is and that the report is "just a formality".

The bank is unwilling to accept the kind of disclaimers the engineer needs in order to protect himself. Frequently the bank has its own forms which it requires the engineer to sign, virtually guaranteeing the structural adequacy of the building.

I recall one clause in the bank's form which said "I certify that there are no steel strands or cables used for pre-stressing within the building or anywhere on the property". Their reason for this was they had been stung by problems with unbonded pre-tensioned systems in the past. How can anyone sign such a clause as that even if the drawings show a structural steel building? But if you don't sign it, the client doesn't get his financing. Catch 22, I'd say.

BA

 

[Archie264]

Well, good point, Hokie. I guess there are degrees and nuances to such things. And part of that, I suppose, is discerning who is really interested in an evaluation of their building's condition and who just wants a piece of paper to facilitate a real estate transaction.

 

[ajk1]

All wise counsel, but I think it is preaching to the converted. It is the people who are npot reading this site, who maybe should be.

 

[hokie66]

BA,
I agree that there are forms which cannot be ethically used without substantial modification. But the quote you referenced would in many cases be verifiable, and I think the bank is well within its rights of insisting on that statement, or something similar. If a bank or any client just wants a signoff on a standard form, I agree with you that refusing the commission is the right thing to do.