Engineer? 30

[MacGruber22]

Nearly every time I get into a career/job conversation with a few of my friends I find it interesting how they hold so tightly onto job title definitions that have nothing or little to do with engineering. They didn't go to engineering school, they don't know how to solve even the most basic static force system (in any engineering discipline), can't revolve a vector into components, etc. etc... Yet, they are continually offended that I make the claim that their title should be stripped of containing the word "engineer".

Is this an issue worth defending? If "yes", what is the most sound way to argue the point?

 

[JackAction]

About forest engineers: They protect our forest. When you do it commercially, you cannot - literally - cut a single tree without the approval of a forest engineer. The profession appeared when people started abusing clearcutting. They have their own order and are not linked to engineers per say. To refer to TenPenny's post, I would say that they are more biologist than civil engineer.

 

[MacGruber22]

Quebec it is!

Now to convince the wife... :/

 

[JNieman]

[Context, USA]

I've stopped caring. I've known engineers who are absolute geniuses with physics and possess an ability to constantly have a visceral three dimensional consciousness of the project at hand which enables them to see any issues that may arise, before they arise. Some that know what the weak points are, and what areas don't require exhaustive calculations because they are "over built" to an extent that it's not worth worrying about (unless it is required by an authority to prove it) and all the while maintain the ability to force software to output realistic analyses while still maintaining the ability to do the work by hand to spot-check results to ensure accuracy.

I've also known people with the same on-paper qualifications (multiple degrees, managerial/senior titles) who couldn't size the main beams on a generator platform given the footprint and weight of the equipment.

I've also known people with nothing but a high school diploma who fell into the same category as my first paragraph.

I feel there are protections the public must have. However, "job titles" are not in such a realm. If someone is claiming to be an engineer in order to sell their services to an unknowing member of the public, then yes, that is unfortunate. I also believe there should be an avenue to achieve 'engineer' status legally (though not with lesser testing) without getting a degree as I believe it's an academic circle-jerking scam that denies a great percentage of the population the opportunity.

The only people I've known to get literally offended by someone claiming status of "engineer" without having a BSME/BSCE/etc, are people who are either very insecure and feel titles validate themselves, or people so elitist and vanity that it reminds me of the hoity-toity restaurant patron who would complain to management if someone wasn't wearing a necktie with their suit jacket.

_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5

 

[IRstuff]

I wanted those nuts on a plate!!!! Off with your head!

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

 

[lacajun]

NSPE Blog Technology v Engineering

When I went from technology to engineering, the difference was huge.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[Leftwow]

An engineer is a person who is trained to know EVERYTHING about the process of making a product.

 

[drawoh]

Playswow,

Manufacturing? In my world, that is the part engineers are not trained in!

--
JHG

 

[MacGruber22]

EVERYTHING

That is a false statement. Example - do you know EVERYTHING about the chemistry of steel and concrete? Hint: The answer is no.



"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

 

[Leftwow]

You didn't have to take construction materials in college?

 

[KENAT]

Sure there were materials classes, but didn't make me an expert in all things steel & aluminum - let alone some of the more exotic materials or materials not used much in modern aviation.

I've seen a good few proposed definitions of what is/who gets to be an engineer in my time on this site Playswow but I'm afraid to say yours is one I have have to disagree with most strongly - and that's coming from someone who's something of a contrarian on this topic.

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[MacGruber22]

An important part of being an engineer (ignoring the impossibility of knowing EVERYTHING) is to be able to have very strong deductive/inductive reasoning skills in order to make informed decisions/choices even when we are not experts in a particular subject. We all have specialized skills (structural analysis, heat transfer, fluid flow etc.) that we have spent many years working on, but we are constantly asked to solve problems outside of our expertise. However - at a minimum, an engineer knows when to not meddle with things he/she could make a gross error with. Living in a fantasy world of "knowing all" is a slippery slope to making poor choices.

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

 

[DeleteriousPhases]

I describe engineering as working outside the constraints of previously generated engineering code books, manuals and the like. Engineering is when you travel outside the world of the known, world proven, scientific fact and understanding and traverse into the realm of the experimental, doing what you can with some sense of humility to adapt whatever project is in your hands to safe human usage, often having to conduct your own study to gather data on paper for how the project will function in real life scenarios and hope that you have enough safety factor to prevent a catastrophic result.

Though the imbeciles that take control of it after you're done will probably run it at 450% mawp, or press an old peice of equipment into service and blow it up.

Could be wrong though.

 

[ScottyUK]

"An engineer is a person who is trained to know EVERYTHING about the process of making a product."

And as you gain experience you'll realise that you won't live long enough to know everything. I know guys who've forgotten more than I'll ever know about generators. And that's supposed to be something I actually know about.

 

[havesealwilltravel]

I think many of you have it wrong.

A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she serves a residency, passes the tests and is licensed.
A veterinarian is not a veterinarian until he or she has serves a residency, passes the tests and is licensed.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she passes the bar exam and is licensed.
A teacher is not a teacher until he or she performs student teaching, passes the tests and is certified (licensed).

To be an engineer, for all practical purposes, no testing or licensing is required. That's why we do not have the respect or pay of the "true" professionals such as medical doctors, veterinarians, lawyers or teachers. They have control of their professional societies, engineers do not. Our professional societies do very little to advance the cause of engineers. ASCE, ASME IEEE, etc. are technical societies not professional societies.

 

[IRstuff]

We respect lawyers?










not...

Not all doctors make the big salaries; the average family doctor draws less than $200k:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2012/07/20/the-best-and-worst-paying-jobs-for-doctors-2/

Many engineers make that much.

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com:

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

 

[Leftwow]

I like my definition. I felt as the everything comment had a limited meaning, not as you interpreted.

 

[MacGruber22]

I think many of you have it wrong.

That is a very brave comment in a thread of engineers who seem to generally agree to let it go. I don't know, havesealwilltravel. I understand what you are saying as far as the comparison to other professions, but I am beginning to understand that for many reasons, it is not worth getting worked up over. I have a feeling that it may be healthier to let it go. I do really disagree with your argument involving monetary value. I doubt owners, architects, contractors, etc. will be any more likely (in the whole) to meet larger engineering fees on the basis of being a "true" professional. I don't know what that means.

Also:

...They have control of their professional societies, engineers do not. Our professional societies do very little to advance the cause of engineers. ASCE, ASME IEEE, etc. are technical societies not professional societies.

Do you know for a fact that ASCE, et al do not politic for engineers? Or is it just because you "feel" neglected, and blame those organizations?

I like my definition

Then consider trying to rewrite basic definitions of words, because that is what you were doing.

Someone should close this thread...

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

 

[KENAT]

Ahh, but there's the rub MacGruber and why I came out of the gates so quick with my beaten horses.

Now you've opened this can of worms it's stuck open until there hasn't been a comment for I think it's 6 months.

As the gap between IRstuff's Dec 15th post and lacajun's Apr 11th post, it's difficult to hit the 6 months on a topic like this as you new know when a new or inactive member will come across it and want to add their 2C (not a dig lacajun by the way).

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[MacGruber22]

Kennat - I understand, but it is always good to re-start topics. It can pull in new ideas/opinions that would not otherwise be available by reading a 5-year-old closed thread. You think it is closed, and I am generally satisfied with my take on the topic, but it is clear that there are some who are not done.

If you don't like this thread, go read one of the 10,000 other active threads; but I bet you can't help yourself and will be back for more!



"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

 

[KENAT]

Of course I will, I'm a glutton for punishment while I'm waiting for my CAD models to update etc.;-)

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