Engineering Fee Qustion again! 7

[JStructsteel]

Anyone able to provide a sanity check for a foundation for PEMB?

90000sf, 30x60 bays, 2 walls with docks. So retaining walls, footings, AB design, maybe slab design.

One complication is the end frame columns are on a 5' high wall/pedestal. opposite side wind columns go down to slab

Midwest location, Central OH.

I am around $8500, but in my mind that seems high, due to repetition.

thoughts?

 

[RPGs]

Do you do all your own drafting? Perhaps a little on the high side, but still seems about right if you're providing plans. Blame it on inflation and go for it.

EDIT: Reading the replies I realized I misread the square footage as 9000 sf... Ouch. Apologies.

 

[JedClampett]

I disagree. Who's going to do the anchorage check for the PEMB columns? You know it's not going to be the supplier. Who reviews the submittal drawings? Maybe, if you're 100% off the hook once the drawing is issued. But that never happens.

 

[XR250]

That sounds low given the scale of the project.

 

[JStructsteel]

I would do my drafting.

@ Jed, what do you mean anchorage check? I think they leave anchor bolt design to the foundation designer correct? I dont think I would ever be 100% off the hook. I would have notes that the PEMB to review anchor bolt layout to ensure it conforms with their latest plans, etc.

With it having a 5' wall all the way around, and the frames on the wall, I can see that being alot of design and detailing.

 

[dik]

You should raise the wall by a foot or so... that way, the horizontal ties are above normal head height... Joking aside, you can design columns/piers/counterforts to resist the horizontal load, but you need to be careful. It's really dependent on the soil type and for sustained loading (PEMB loading is sustained), you need a real geotekkie and construction review by a geotekkie. The pier and foundatons can be designed for the loading. Your fee might be a little low, considering the type of foundation required. What type of soil and what type of foundation?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[JedClampett]

@ Jed, what do you mean anchorage check? I think they leave anchor bolt design to the foundation designer correct?

If you're doing to foundation design, I'm guessing you're going to have to check the PEMB anchors. Expect:
[ul]
[li]A poor submittal with about 50 load combinations. All working stress, so hard to use with ACI.[/li]
[li]Lateral bracing bays loads separated, not combined.[/li]
[li]Edge distances and spacing so tight that the capacity is greatly reduced.[/li]
[li]PEMB Designer not helping out at all, "I designed the building, it's your hard luck to do the anchors. Not my job."[/li]
[/ul]

I'm fresh off of doing one of these, so my wounds are still fresh.

 

[SWComposites]

So ..... as an aerospace structures engineer, and having read many of these fees and PEMB discussions, most of which end up with something like "I got screwed again on the latest PEMB project", why do you all a) even take these jobs, or b) not charge a very high fee to put up with all of the BS? What would happen if all structures engineers refused to design foundations etc for PEMBs??

 

[phamENG]

90,000SF? Yikes. You're very low. Just for a simple PEMB I wouldn't touch it for less than $15k. Throw in everything else you mentioned and I'd be closer to $20k.

Don't let these thing lure you in the illusion of repetition and an easy buck.

SWComposites - why, indeed?

 

[phamENG]

I would have notes that the PEMB to review anchor bolt layout to ensure it conforms with their latest plans, etc.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[EZBuilding]

50 cents per square foot is a reasonable estimate for Structural fees on a building project. Let's use 40 cent per square foot due to the repetition in a PEMB and the lack of architectural design features.

Splitting the design fee 50-50 between you and the PEMB engineer places the structural fee at $18,000....

 

[JoelTXCive]

I made my first attempt at a similar foundation earlier this year. I had a 42" tall stem wall around the perimeter.

Attached are the plan sheets I generated to give you an idea of a level of effort.

My foundation has not been built yet; so I don't know have any performance updates.

Other comments:

[ul]
[li]After this project bid, the storage building was removed due to cost. The land department all blamed my foundation, but I don't think I have anything too crazy in there. It will probably get built next budget year.[/li]
[li][/li]
[li]I have big footings under the columns due to the terrible clay soils in the Houston region and also to resist the uplift. Our normal allowable bearing capacity is in the range of 1000psf to 2000psf.[/li]
[li][/li]
[li]Originally, I wanted the internal 6" ribbed slab to be 100% separate from the column footings. That didn't work out though. My column footings kept sliding due to the lateral loading, so I had to use the internal slab beams to tie the whole structure together. I'm not crazy about this and worry about the cracking issues on the 6" slab.[/li]
[li][/li]
[li]I used Nucor's recommended loadings to develop the plans and tried to set things up so that I have the most flexibility possible during the shop drawing phase.[/li]
[/ul]

 

[Celt83]

...and I'd be closer to $20k.

Ok phew, thought I was way off base cause that's the number I was landing on.

I really don't understand how the PEMB folks convinced the industry that the anchorage design belongs to the foundation engineer and I don't buy the argument of them not being able to do it considering they just designed an entire above grade structure for gravity and lateral loading.

 

[phamENG]

Ok phew, thought I was way off base cause that's the number I was landing on.

Yeah - had one a while ago that was mostly warehouse with an office in the front, partial height masonry walls, an elevated loading dock (not in the PEMB contract), etc. Not a big building at all - I gave them a fee for a little over $5k. I didn't get it. The competition's fee? $1,600.... (The architect's RFP said "2,000sf PEMB"...I had to twist his arm to get the rest of the details. I can guarantee you the other firm didn't ask a single question.) I'm not usually sorry to see these go.

I really don't understand how the PEMB folks convinced the industry that the anchorage design belongs to the foundation engineer

It's all in that little box down by their seal stating that they are not the EOR, etc. As soon as they design something that isn't provided by their factory (i.e., the concrete surrounding their anchors), I imagine their liability expands significantly.

 

[JoelTXCive]

I probably had at least $12k of time in the sheetset above.

 

[Deker]

Agree with others that your fee is low. I tend to quote these at around 50 - 75% of what I would charge for a conventionally framed building. Keep in mind that the PEMB supplier will require you to act as EOR for the building. Charge accordingly for taking on that liability.

 

[JStructsteel]

Thanks. I need to get more detail about the soils (knowing my luck, it will be on piles, haha).

I also need to see who the architect is and what they are doing for finishes around the outside. It seems the metal building drawings are showing a 5' wall.

Contractor is now telling they want a 8' wall, 4' above the slab, 4 below (so dock height everywhere?)

More and more I get into it, I am going to be at min 12K for the PITA clause.

 

[SteelPE]

90,000SF? Yikes.

Doing proposals on PEMB foundations isn't easy. So many variables (grading around the perimeter, eave height, clear span, columns placed on knee walls etc). To me the 90,000 ft2 is a bit of a red flag. I don't know what I would charge for a fee, but I find that buildings of this sizes get lost in the shuffle as it's sometimes hard to wrap your head around the size. I completed foundation for a 75,000 ft2 metal building airplane hanger at over 3x your fee. However here I am getting screwed by the PITA contractor who loves RFI's.

For smaller metal buildings I usually try not to go below $2,500.... but I recently did one for $1750 but that was only 20'x15' with a 14' eave (ended up doing pretty well on that project as I designed/drafted it in under a day).

 

[JStructsteel]

Thanks all.
Once I talk with the contractor, I will update and let you know where I landed.

 

[phamENG]

However here I am getting screwed by the PITA contractor who loves RFI's.

This is why my standard proposal has RFIs, Submittal Review, and all other construction period services as hourly. If a client pushes back, that's a red flag to me. I'll be fair, and if the RFI is due to a design omission I take care of it promptly and without an extra fee. But if the contractor wants to call every other day and ask what sheet 3 says, or complain that they never have to do it that way when Joe Shmucatelli, PE is on the job, I'm going to send somebody a bill.