Engineering Fee Qustion again! 7

[JStructsteel]

Anyone able to provide a sanity check for a foundation for PEMB?

90000sf, 30x60 bays, 2 walls with docks. So retaining walls, footings, AB design, maybe slab design.

One complication is the end frame columns are on a 5' high wall/pedestal. opposite side wind columns go down to slab

Midwest location, Central OH.

I am around $8500, but in my mind that seems high, due to repetition.

thoughts?

 

[RPGs]

Does PITA mean what I think it means?

Spoiler

Pain In The ***

 

[JedClampett]

I really don't understand how the PEMB folks convinced the industry that the anchorage design belongs to the foundation engineer

They just refuse. They must of had a meeting where they all got together and said, if we present a united front, we'll never have to crack ACI 318.
The EOR is put in a position where the owner is saying to the EOR, "...c'mon, you know how to do these calculations, just do them." The contractor is smiling, processing a delay claim in their head.
We write it in the contractual language that the supplier is required to do anchor bolt design and once every few years, the contractor subs out that design (note that the PEMB supplier has held firm). But most of the time, we end up doing it.

 

[phamENG]

RPGreen - well we're not talking about delicious Mediterranean cuisine.

I don't love the Metal Building System workflow, but since it exists and I can't change that, I'll say that I think the demarcation line is probably in the best spot that it can be. If the metal building engineer has to specify embedment, they have to think about edge distances and/or anchor reinforcement. Once they have control over proportioning of foundation elements or locating foundation rebar, how much control do I have over the design of that footing now? And of course there's no way they're going to let me tell them what size holes to punch in their base plates.

It's not perfect - a design that works for the steel side of anchorage may not be tenable for the concrete side, anchor spacing is too tight and in many cases violates ACI provisions unless you take special precautions to prevent over torquing the anchors, etc. But I'd say it's about as neutral is it can be.

 

[Aesur]

Personally I think you are very low, you should IMO be in the 25k to 30k range as a min.

There are a few things to consider:

1. A building that size will require fairly complex foundation design, most likely including tie beams in lieu of hairpins.
2. You are the EOR and are technically responsible for the PEMB design as it's a "delegated or deferred design". As the EOR you should be compensated for such additional liability, I believe there was another post on here talking about this within the past year.
3. You will most likely have some stepped foundations and retaining walls for a building of that size.
4. You will most likely be designing based on preliminary reactions first and then need to verify and or update for final reactions (doing work twice).
5. You need to be cautious of any "architectural features" that the PEMB doesn't include, which can be many. (partitions, excessive parapets, mech screens, wall materials other than standard metal panels, etc.)
6. You should consider the client, how often do they change designs, make modifications, etc..

 

[jittles]

^^ Ditto what Aesur said.

$8500 is comically low IMO
Even at 30k, that's still only 33 cents/ft... starting to get there.

Defend the value you bring to the project as the engineer. 30-50 cents per square foot out of what total construction cost these days? It's a drop in the bucket.

 

[dik]

With RFIs, if it's on the documents (it should be) then I reference the document it's on. If it's a detailing question, I ask the contractor to provide a sketch of what he's proposing.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

Yes... and inform him that it's in the specifications and that he should be directing his sub-trades and to be careful not to delay the project... put the shoe on his foot, where it belongs.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[JStructsteel]

So an update. Spoke to the contractor. A little bit of this feels like the owner is using the contractor to price shop the engineering. Contractor sounded like a good contractor, does repeat work for owner.

Its also still preliminary too. So I think my price will be 12K, and my scope clearly defined, and whats required to get started.

Thanks.

 

[GC_Hopi]

12k is low. IMHO if you are a sole proprietor it is possible to break even or make ~1k in profit at that rate. Maybe construction services is where the money is.

 

[Aesur]

12k is way too low for your liability and amount of work you will end up putting in, even with limiting the contract language; can I get your contact information to send you these to do on 1099 when we do these projects?

Whenever you talk to a contractor about engineering fees, they are ALWAYS very low, they can then turn around and tell the client they got you to do it at such and such fee and it's a plus for them and their relationship with the owner. I had a project a few months back where the owner had a contractor saying the fee should be no more than 1500, my fee was 8000, they kept pushing for me to lower to "industry standard" which I refused to do and told them to find someone else, 2 weeks later they signed my contract because there was no one lower, at which point they are now end of the line and we couldn't touch it until sometime next year. Moral of the story, no one out there is here to help you with fees, they all want the lowest possible, also never expect favors in exchange for lowing your fee, you will never "make it up elsewhere". Figure out what fee works for you and use it and don't lower it without just reason.

 

[jittles]

also never expect favors in exchange for lowing your fee, you will never "make it up elsewhere"

So very true in my experience.

 

[JStructsteel]

Based on the drawings, I have 5 column footings to design, and 2 wall footings. Anchor bolt design and drafting.

Im at 40 hrs for the engineering and 40 hrs for the drafting. @150 for engineering, thats 6K, and @100 for drafting, thats 4K. 2K for the PITA clause.

As for the drawings, Even doing the footings only, should I be putting all the design requirements for the building on my drawings? Wind loads, Seismic loads, etc?

Do I use being the EOR as a reason for a higher fee?

 

[driftLimiter]

The PEMB folks will suggest that the design criteria is as specified by the EOR. If it isn't specified they will go with the minimum for the locality. Yes the contract drawings which are prepared by the EOR must include drawing elements according to IBC (loads, wind, seismic parameters, statement of special inspections, etc.)

The PEMB package is going to be a supplement to the EOR drawings.

As an example of some things the EOR specifies, I am working on a similar project right now, arch. wants CMU walls up to 8 ft. I need to specify the required deflection requirements to the PEMB company. This is really important because PEMBs notoriously have large drifts for lateral loads.

 

[Aesur]

@JStructsteel, please also keep in mind, you will first get preliminary reactions, and eventually (probably after permitting) get final reactions which have to be verified. Normally I increase preliminary reactions by 25% or so and check that the new reactions are less than what I used and call it a day, however recently there has been a push to redesign them for the final reactions to reduce concrete.

The design criteria is required to be on your drawings as you are the EOR (for PEMB's the foundation designer is almost always EOR), and technically can be sued if the PEMB as a deferred submittal or delegated design has issues, so you should get an increased fee for that increased liability right?

Have you seen reactions for a PEMB before? I find it highly unlikely you will only have 5 foundations to design. The last major PEMB I did the foundations for was approx. 65,000 sqft and had around 40 different column reactions to design for (I don't know how a symmetrical building can have this, but they do with PEMB's). Additionally, figuring out how to sum up their loads into load combinations with what seems like hundreds of different load cases, with no direction on which applies when and many times not even knowing if it's ultimate or ASD reactions in itself can take a few days. I built a spreadsheet years ago that works for many manufacturers, but I still spend a decent amount of time making sure I understand how their cases are to be summed up. It's also worth nothing that many times your correspondence is not with an engineer, but a salesperson which causes delays when trying to get engineering information. (note that this isn't always the case, but many times on larger buildings it seems to be).

Do you have conditions that have dock levelers to consider in your design? This will increase the number of foundation designs and require varying pedestal designs as the PEMB columns are almost always installed at finished slab elevation.

I assume you will also have grade beams around the perimeter which will need to be special designs for the braced or portal frames.

Is there anything hanging from the structure? If so, typically you are required to design the hanging structure and provide loading to the PEMB manufacturer.

 

[dik]

My drawing notes stipulate additional loading for the purlins and the frames. You want to have the client sign off on the design loading, in case there are future conditions that 'you should have designed for..." or anticipated or may have been made aware of. I consider PEMBs as 'throwaway' buildings that have a life of 25 or 30 years. I like the engineering that goes into them, but really dislike them.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[JStructsteel]

So my final number was 15K. Sent over yesterday, have not heard back. Sorta thinking I am just a price check for another engineer. We will see.

 

[milkshakelake]

With your doorbuster price, I'd be shocked if they're using you as a price check and don't decide to just go with you. The reason you haven't heard back is because it's Veteran's Day.

 

[JStructsteel]

@ Milksahelake, Perhaps your right. I dont see it as a doorbuster. It might be lean, but i am sole proprietor, not alot of overhead.

 

[Aesur]

@JStructsteel - I believe you may be undervaluing yourself with that statement. Just because you can do something more lean because you are a sole proprietor doesn't mean you should do that. Why not reap the rewards of not having so much overhead. This is why many engineers are not businessmen and why when MBA's get into engineer companies they don't last long.

It is my opinion that part of the our industries problems with training and good talent is one many shops under pricing everything therefore forcing the companies who have larger staff to price similar which means they can't possibly afford to train new engineers. When we started off we were and still are very low overhead, one of the first things architects said to us was "great, you can pass those savings on to us" our response was essentially, no it means we will provide a better level of engineering and reap the rewards of forming a low overhead company and thus far our fees have been in line with our competition. Don't price low just because you can, price industry standard and reap the reward!

 

[phamENG]

I agree with Aesur. The big shops are often the ones that are pricing too low. When I started I was 'passing on the savings' and it kept me from making some of the improvements in my work product I set out to make when starting my own company.

I've been gradually rectifying that, and it's great. My quality is improving along with my revenue.