havesealwilltravel
Structural
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Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II 27
- Thread starter havesealwilltravel
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EDDYC,
Slightly off topic
Re the topic of New York State exempting it's own employees from cont. Education.
I am a ct engineer we just learned that we have to do ceu's to keep our PEs in NY. Yet the state exempts themseleves!!!! How are we supposed to exempt someone who keeps exempting themselves from the rules they make they should spend more time worrying about contractors building it right instead of making us do cont. ed
Slightly off topic
Re the topic of New York State exempting it's own employees from cont. Education.
I am a ct engineer we just learned that we have to do ceu's to keep our PEs in NY. Yet the state exempts themseleves!!!! How are we supposed to exempt someone who keeps exempting themselves from the rules they make they should spend more time worrying about contractors building it right instead of making us do cont. ed
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3
- #23
GregLocock
Automotive
Here's a Wired article on outsourcing programmer's jobs to India - obviously programming is more portable than engineering, but the trend is similar.
A few quotes
"Ritesh Maniar reminds me that Hexaware has scored a Level 5 rating from Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the highest international standard a software company can achieve. The others are quick to note that, of the 70 or so companies in the world that have earned this designation, half are from India."
""Don't you think we're helping the US economy by doing the work here?" asks an exasperated Lalit Suryawanshi. It frees up Americans to do other things so the economy can grow, adds Jairam.
What begins to seep through their well-tiled arguments about quality, efficiency, and optimization is a view that Americans, who have long celebrated the sweetness of dynamic capitalism, must get used to the concept that it works for non-Americans, too."
"And if this transition pinches a little, aren't Americans being a tad hypocritical by whining about it? After all, where is it written that IT jobs somehow belong to Americans - and that any non-American who does such work is stealing the job from its rightful owner?"
""We can't stop globalization," Turner <USA politician who has raised a bill to prevent government from sourcing jobs overseas> says. But outsourcing, especially now, amounts to "contributing to our own demise." When jobs go overseas, governments lose income tax revenue - and that makes it even harder to assist those who need a hand."
"Patni is India's sixth-largest software and services exporter; Hexaware ranks 18th. Patni employs about 6,500 people in offices all over the world and has a long-standing relationship with GE and a $100 million investment from the venture capital firm General Atlantic Partners. ....
Yet for all this muscle-flexing, Patni remains a relative pipsqueak. Its 2002 revenue was about $188 million. That same year, the American IT firm EDS hauled in revenue of $21.5 billion."
"Worried about India's practically infinite pool of smart, educated, English-speaking people eager to work for the equivalent of your latte budget? Get used to it. Today's Indian call centers, programming shops, and help desks are just the beginning. Tomorrow it will be financial analysis, research, design, graphics - potentially any job that does not require physical proximity. The American cubicle farm is the new textile mill, just another sunset industry. "
Cheers
Greg Locock
A few quotes
"Ritesh Maniar reminds me that Hexaware has scored a Level 5 rating from Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the highest international standard a software company can achieve. The others are quick to note that, of the 70 or so companies in the world that have earned this designation, half are from India."
""Don't you think we're helping the US economy by doing the work here?" asks an exasperated Lalit Suryawanshi. It frees up Americans to do other things so the economy can grow, adds Jairam.
What begins to seep through their well-tiled arguments about quality, efficiency, and optimization is a view that Americans, who have long celebrated the sweetness of dynamic capitalism, must get used to the concept that it works for non-Americans, too."
"And if this transition pinches a little, aren't Americans being a tad hypocritical by whining about it? After all, where is it written that IT jobs somehow belong to Americans - and that any non-American who does such work is stealing the job from its rightful owner?"
""We can't stop globalization," Turner <USA politician who has raised a bill to prevent government from sourcing jobs overseas> says. But outsourcing, especially now, amounts to "contributing to our own demise." When jobs go overseas, governments lose income tax revenue - and that makes it even harder to assist those who need a hand."
"Patni is India's sixth-largest software and services exporter; Hexaware ranks 18th. Patni employs about 6,500 people in offices all over the world and has a long-standing relationship with GE and a $100 million investment from the venture capital firm General Atlantic Partners. ....
Yet for all this muscle-flexing, Patni remains a relative pipsqueak. Its 2002 revenue was about $188 million. That same year, the American IT firm EDS hauled in revenue of $21.5 billion."
"Worried about India's practically infinite pool of smart, educated, English-speaking people eager to work for the equivalent of your latte budget? Get used to it. Today's Indian call centers, programming shops, and help desks are just the beginning. Tomorrow it will be financial analysis, research, design, graphics - potentially any job that does not require physical proximity. The American cubicle farm is the new textile mill, just another sunset industry. "
Cheers
Greg Locock
I referred to a report that some companies were discovering that offshore call/support centres were not such a good idea after all.
I have a low opinion of these centres anyway, wherever located and especially because of my experience with Symantec. I got better support from Tek-Tips, more imediate and more helpful. However, in a forum bemoaning the lost of jobs overseas, let's keep a focus. Worrying about call centres going offshore may be misguided. If a 90% staff turnover rate means anything it means that these are jobs US engineers and UK engineers don't want to do. A 25% trunover rate in India doesn't exactly suggest these are jobs that well educated and overqualified engineers there are exactly happy about, but then there are diferent pressures there. 90% turnover suggests alternative jobs to go to. 25% suggests less employment opportunities.
So lets just assume that tough call though this is we might ougth to worry more about those jobs where the voluntary leaveing rate is in the low single figures e.g. 1-5% because these are the jobs we'd rather keep.
As for call centres, why have them? How soon before they are all operated by home workers? The improvements in connection speed and networking capability (FUNNELGUY and excepted) suggests this could be the next step. Thin about it, ENG-Tips and TEK-TIPS is already a better call cnetre set-up with global operatives and almost instant response!
I have a low opinion of these centres anyway, wherever located and especially because of my experience with Symantec. I got better support from Tek-Tips, more imediate and more helpful. However, in a forum bemoaning the lost of jobs overseas, let's keep a focus. Worrying about call centres going offshore may be misguided. If a 90% staff turnover rate means anything it means that these are jobs US engineers and UK engineers don't want to do. A 25% trunover rate in India doesn't exactly suggest these are jobs that well educated and overqualified engineers there are exactly happy about, but then there are diferent pressures there. 90% turnover suggests alternative jobs to go to. 25% suggests less employment opportunities.
So lets just assume that tough call though this is we might ougth to worry more about those jobs where the voluntary leaveing rate is in the low single figures e.g. 1-5% because these are the jobs we'd rather keep.
As for call centres, why have them? How soon before they are all operated by home workers? The improvements in connection speed and networking capability (FUNNELGUY and excepted) suggests this could be the next step. Thin about it, ENG-Tips and TEK-TIPS is already a better call cnetre set-up with global operatives and almost instant response!
ChrisatEastAg
Agricultural
The following excerpt appeared in "The Australian" newspaper's 'Wealth' liftout, 28/1:
Asked in the 'Financial Times' why the Poms and Yanks tolerate such poor quality cars, GM vice chairman Bob Lutz said "The British and the Americans are not anal, which is why we will easily tolerate crooked pictures on the walls... (these) would simply not be tolerated in Switzerland, Germany, Japan, probably Korea - all these highly anal cultures."
If this is accurately reported, then I'm speechless. Perhaps American manufacturing should be outsourcing it's management!
Asked in the 'Financial Times' why the Poms and Yanks tolerate such poor quality cars, GM vice chairman Bob Lutz said "The British and the Americans are not anal, which is why we will easily tolerate crooked pictures on the walls... (these) would simply not be tolerated in Switzerland, Germany, Japan, probably Korea - all these highly anal cultures."
If this is accurately reported, then I'm speechless. Perhaps American manufacturing should be outsourcing it's management!
The young have been corrupted in our country by the call centres. Young engineers from good colleges are joining these centres because of better pay and glamorous environment. Such facilities cannot be extended in a manufacturing environment. (I bemoan this loss.) Also the turnaround is very high as this is a nascent industry and competition pulls the few available candidates. However, the youngsters seem to be joining them in large numbers. I agree that there can be some fly by night operators too.
Also "customer" or "service orientation" is a new concept in our country. All along it was government controlled market,with licences and quota system in place. Many of these fresh youngsters may not be able to present themselves well as they might not have adequate experience in a service oriented society. But I hope they shall learn soon. It is because of this handicap some might have faced problems. I too encounter these problems when I interact with foreign banks.
In near future high tech areas where analysis capability,decison making,financial accounting,research etc is involved you will find a strong Indian presence.
(On a lighter vein I have been telling my family that after I retire for supporting my family I too may seek a job in a call centre for 2 reasons 1) I love to talk 2) call centre jobs invariably are night shift jobs,due to old age I can remain awake at night without any problem.)
Also "customer" or "service orientation" is a new concept in our country. All along it was government controlled market,with licences and quota system in place. Many of these fresh youngsters may not be able to present themselves well as they might not have adequate experience in a service oriented society. But I hope they shall learn soon. It is because of this handicap some might have faced problems. I too encounter these problems when I interact with foreign banks.
In near future high tech areas where analysis capability,decison making,financial accounting,research etc is involved you will find a strong Indian presence.
(On a lighter vein I have been telling my family that after I retire for supporting my family I too may seek a job in a call centre for 2 reasons 1) I love to talk 2) call centre jobs invariably are night shift jobs,due to old age I can remain awake at night without any problem.)
ChrisatEastAg has brought up a point I have though about much. We should be outsourcing management jobs.
With the typical CEO pay and bonuses, just outsourcing a single CEO position to, say China, at a 10% rate would save perhaps $10M per outsource CEO. This would be enough to save 200+ hard working American jobs in a single company.
A CEO (or other top guy) so removed from where the products are made would also increase American work productivity immensely. Need I explain Why?
A greedy unethical CEO in the Far East might embezzle a new car, the cost of a new home, etc. These items in another economy might cost $1M instead of the $tens to $hundreds of $Millions$ as exampled in recent US news.
Maybe the REAL reason American jobs are outsourced to the other side of the world is to get the productive work as far away as possible from disruptive management influences. What we need to do is outsource the management!
With the typical CEO pay and bonuses, just outsourcing a single CEO position to, say China, at a 10% rate would save perhaps $10M per outsource CEO. This would be enough to save 200+ hard working American jobs in a single company.
A CEO (or other top guy) so removed from where the products are made would also increase American work productivity immensely. Need I explain Why?
A greedy unethical CEO in the Far East might embezzle a new car, the cost of a new home, etc. These items in another economy might cost $1M instead of the $tens to $hundreds of $Millions$ as exampled in recent US news.
Maybe the REAL reason American jobs are outsourced to the other side of the world is to get the productive work as far away as possible from disruptive management influences. What we need to do is outsource the management!
More fodder for the discussion bin.
I was in a somewhat similar position of training my replacement when the company I was working for was purchased by an overseas firm. The difference I suppose was that we were the subsidiary and it was not unexpected.
I was in a somewhat similar position of training my replacement when the company I was working for was purchased by an overseas firm. The difference I suppose was that we were the subsidiary and it was not unexpected.
There will be no significant legislation which will stop the flow of jobs overseas until and unless there is formed an effective lobbying effort to deliver that political message (read that as : support individual congessional elections) . If we engineers represent an "interest group", then the standard method of effecting such political change is to formalize the interest group, collect membership fees, and lobby. So long as we do not play the game by these standard rules, all the complaints to this board are equivalent to p***ing in the wind.
The laws had been written in a manner which allows corporations to use overseas labor precisely because these corporations did lobby ( perhaps thru Nat'l assoc of manufacturers, etc)and there was not voiced any effective countervailing protest by an equivalent interest group. These exact same lobbying gruops are the same ones pushing for guest worker visas, and encouraging the non-funding of the agencies charged to prevent illegal immigration. Its not rocket science.
The laws had been written in a manner which allows corporations to use overseas labor precisely because these corporations did lobby ( perhaps thru Nat'l assoc of manufacturers, etc)and there was not voiced any effective countervailing protest by an equivalent interest group. These exact same lobbying gruops are the same ones pushing for guest worker visas, and encouraging the non-funding of the agencies charged to prevent illegal immigration. Its not rocket science.
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- #32
For all of you who are worried that your standard of living may not fall enough to be able to compete with India and other third world countries, last 12 months have set a new trend in world economics:
The US Dollar has lost about 24% value against the Euro and other foreing currency. This you might not be aware of, but now to buy products from Europe is more expensive (imported inflation?) if the trend continues you will have more jobs as European companies will find more sense in building their products in the US than over there, plus a lot of jobs are going to be saved or created to cope with the domestic demand of US-made products to replace the higher cost of the ones who where imported up to now into the US, and as the icing in the cake, a lot of products are going to be exported from the states to foreing markets which were currently supplied by european and japanese companies.
I for one example have droped my suppliers of crane components from european suppliers (German and Finland)to suppliers from the States.
So maybe a light is shinning at the end of the tunnel, what has to be done is to find a way to manufacture in the US more efficiently to compensate for the low wages paid in 3rd world countries.
SACEM1
The US Dollar has lost about 24% value against the Euro and other foreing currency. This you might not be aware of, but now to buy products from Europe is more expensive (imported inflation?) if the trend continues you will have more jobs as European companies will find more sense in building their products in the US than over there, plus a lot of jobs are going to be saved or created to cope with the domestic demand of US-made products to replace the higher cost of the ones who where imported up to now into the US, and as the icing in the cake, a lot of products are going to be exported from the states to foreing markets which were currently supplied by european and japanese companies.
I for one example have droped my suppliers of crane components from european suppliers (German and Finland)to suppliers from the States.
So maybe a light is shinning at the end of the tunnel, what has to be done is to find a way to manufacture in the US more efficiently to compensate for the low wages paid in 3rd world countries.
SACEM1
GregLocock
Automotive
Yes, a lower dollar is a fairly painless way of going through the necessary adjustment. Note that in real terms this does cause a drop in the standard of living - on average you can buy fewer goods (because the imported ones are more expensive). However, of the several options it is probably the least painful.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Cheers
Greg Locock
'I was forced to train the Indian who took my job'
Please refer to this article,which mentions that an Engineer from Siemens who has been affected by BPO is running for US congress from Florida so that his voice may be heard.. He is one step ahead than the rest.
sacem1,
Nice post. However, one fact that you forgot was that some countries have their currency pegged to the US greenback. China for example. So, a lower dollar in the US just means a lower dollar in China.
In an even playing field, I'd agree with your perspective. But since the world does not play fair, what you mentioned will provide only limited relief.
Looking forward to the discussion.
jetmaker
Nice post. However, one fact that you forgot was that some countries have their currency pegged to the US greenback. China for example. So, a lower dollar in the US just means a lower dollar in China.
In an even playing field, I'd agree with your perspective. But since the world does not play fair, what you mentioned will provide only limited relief.
Looking forward to the discussion.
jetmaker
GregLocock
Automotive
Yes, pegged exchange rates are a fascinating ploy for a poorer country. Of course, they are no different in theory than the internal rates of exchange inside a country - differences that most people seem to be able to get their heads around, but that I find very hard to analyse.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Cheers
Greg Locock
It's the old story, the bigger the debt the more people who have a stake in keeping the debtor afloat, no matter how broke he is. The US dollar is so integral to so many economies that it becomes almost imune to collapse simply because so many others will go down with it.
Recent worries about a new great depression have largely proved unfounded and the stock markets have proven far more robust because, i suspect, there is either less naivity or a greater awareness that some things just cannot be allowed to happen.
Of course, what this does for US jobs, i don't know.
Recent worries about a new great depression have largely proved unfounded and the stock markets have proven far more robust because, i suspect, there is either less naivity or a greater awareness that some things just cannot be allowed to happen.
Of course, what this does for US jobs, i don't know.
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1
- #38
This was sent to me by e-mail this morning. I taught it was apt for this discussion. Alittle light humour......
Question: Which event most clearly shows the extent of Globalisation?
Answer: Princess Diana's death.
Question: Why?
Answer: An English princess with an Egyptian boyfriend crashes in a French tunnel,driving a German car with a Dutch engine, driven by a Belgian who was drunk on Scottish whisky, (check the bottle before you change he spelling)followed closely by Italian Paparazzi, on Japanese motorcycles; treated by an American doctor, using Brazilian medicines.
This is sent to you by an Australian, using Bill Gates' American technology,and you're probably reading this on one of the IBM clones, that use Taiwanese chips, and a Korean monitor, assembled by Bangladeshi workers in a Singapore plant, transported by Indian lorry-drivers, hijacked by Indonesians, unloaded by Sicilian longshoremen, and trucked to you by Mexican illegals.....
That, my friends, is Globalisation.
![[smile]](/data/assets/smilies/smile.gif "[smile] [smile]")
Question: Which event most clearly shows the extent of Globalisation?
Answer: Princess Diana's death.
Question: Why?
Answer: An English princess with an Egyptian boyfriend crashes in a French tunnel,driving a German car with a Dutch engine, driven by a Belgian who was drunk on Scottish whisky, (check the bottle before you change he spelling)followed closely by Italian Paparazzi, on Japanese motorcycles; treated by an American doctor, using Brazilian medicines.
This is sent to you by an Australian, using Bill Gates' American technology,and you're probably reading this on one of the IBM clones, that use Taiwanese chips, and a Korean monitor, assembled by Bangladeshi workers in a Singapore plant, transported by Indian lorry-drivers, hijacked by Indonesians, unloaded by Sicilian longshoremen, and trucked to you by Mexican illegals.....
That, my friends, is Globalisation.
mabn,
The nationalities mentioned by speedy's post are just that "nationalities" none of them mentioned are a Race --- just that all are part of the "Human Race".
When speaking of globalization it is perfectly correct to reference different nationalities.
Speedy,
Great post and I certainly do not think you are a RACIST.
A little humor never hurts especially when it is not directed as an insult or shows no disrespect. I think some folks have their BVD's bunched up.
ietech
The nationalities mentioned by speedy's post are just that "nationalities" none of them mentioned are a Race --- just that all are part of the "Human Race".
When speaking of globalization it is perfectly correct to reference different nationalities.
Speedy,
Great post and I certainly do not think you are a RACIST.
A little humor never hurts especially when it is not directed as an insult or shows no disrespect. I think some folks have their BVD's bunched up.
ietech
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