havesealwilltravel
Structural
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Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II 27
- Thread starter havesealwilltravel
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speedy,
To clear up, I don't beleive you are racist either. Please don't take my post that way. I am just trying to highlight that the story you quoted serves to enforce generalizations based on a person's origin or nationality (I'm not sure if there is a word for descrimination based on nationality, racism seemed to me to fit initially). I won't get into why I think generalizations do nothing to progress our society, maybe do some reading on the subject if you are interested. Anyways, please don't think I am taking offense or 'flaming' you, I am just pointing out this fact.
That, my friends, is an apology
To clear up, I don't beleive you are racist either. Please don't take my post that way. I am just trying to highlight that the story you quoted serves to enforce generalizations based on a person's origin or nationality (I'm not sure if there is a word for descrimination based on nationality, racism seemed to me to fit initially). I won't get into why I think generalizations do nothing to progress our society, maybe do some reading on the subject if you are interested. Anyways, please don't think I am taking offense or 'flaming' you, I am just pointing out this fact.
That, my friends, is an apology
You know, I had just posted it when I thought 'Gee, I hope it isn't offensive to anyone'.
No offence intended. I didn't write it anyway, lame excuse I know.
By the way, I’m Irish and a ‘Culchie’ living in Dublin. Culchie is a derogatory term for someone from the countryside. Unless of course you are a culchie, in which case it is worn as a badge of honour. I guess it depends which side of the fence you are on.
Apologies to all!!!
![[peace]](/data/assets/smilies/peace.gif "[peace] [peace]")
Speedy,
There was no offence meant in your thread nor any hint of racial prejudice. It was taken well as a piece of humor and in the right spirit. There is no need for you to offer any apologies.
This thread though a controversial one has been carrying the opinions of everyone without causing any disrespect or hurt to the feelings of any one. This only goes to prove the maturity of the contributors and willingness to accept other's view,though divergentit may be.
There was no offence meant in your thread nor any hint of racial prejudice. It was taken well as a piece of humor and in the right spirit. There is no need for you to offer any apologies.
This thread though a controversial one has been carrying the opinions of everyone without causing any disrespect or hurt to the feelings of any one. This only goes to prove the maturity of the contributors and willingness to accept other's view,though divergentit may be.
Save us from PC! In todays world it is increasingly difficult even for fair minded people to speak their minds without being shot down.
I agree with Arunmrao, this is a contraversial thread with some provocative ideas. It is imperative that it should not be required that anyone explain their background or origins in order to express a viewpoint. Speedy said it himself, after he'd posted, he wondered if he would upset anyone. Fortunately "after" is the operative word. I would not like to think that some before decide not to post because it might give offense where none is intended, that will deprive us all of valuable input.
In fact Speedy's post was a vlauable one as it does show how far the world ishas moved and the direction it is moving.
Once upon a time the US was referred to as a "melting pot", now the euphemism is "salad bowl" which personally, i like better because it does suggest that we can each be proud of our own heritage and not have to pretend we are all exactly alike. Different means just that, different. Not better or worse, just different and as the French say, Vive la deferance". God help Europeans when every little village and high street is exactly the same. When there is no difference there is no interest. What all to often goes wrong is that some people look down on the heritage of others and that is something else again.
Now, do i have to explain or justify my heritage? I suggest you answer no, becayuse my posts are long enough already!
I agree with Arunmrao, this is a contraversial thread with some provocative ideas. It is imperative that it should not be required that anyone explain their background or origins in order to express a viewpoint. Speedy said it himself, after he'd posted, he wondered if he would upset anyone. Fortunately "after" is the operative word. I would not like to think that some before decide not to post because it might give offense where none is intended, that will deprive us all of valuable input.
In fact Speedy's post was a vlauable one as it does show how far the world ishas moved and the direction it is moving.
Once upon a time the US was referred to as a "melting pot", now the euphemism is "salad bowl" which personally, i like better because it does suggest that we can each be proud of our own heritage and not have to pretend we are all exactly alike. Different means just that, different. Not better or worse, just different and as the French say, Vive la deferance". God help Europeans when every little village and high street is exactly the same. When there is no difference there is no interest. What all to often goes wrong is that some people look down on the heritage of others and that is something else again.
Now, do i have to explain or justify my heritage? I suggest you answer no, becayuse my posts are long enough already!
This is pulling the thread slightly off topic as I want to follow up on something that jmw said.
It is a shame that the USA is a "salad bowl", and not the "melting pot" that it use to be, or was at least trying to be. I agree that it is important that each culture be able to retain their culture, but that must be secondary. Everyone needs to be working towards a common goal, and not focusing on their self-interests. The US politican scene is now bombarded by special interest groups. Everybody wanting what is best for them, and not thinking about what is best for the nation as a whole. This is not very productive.
A good example of this is the European Union. They are a true "salad bowl" as each culture was well established before the Union formed. However, this has resulted in many squables amungst the nations as they each vi for power. Look at how long it took to approve the Euro currency, and it is still not adopted by Britian. Or the -400M transport... Germany held the program at bay for years due to their own politican system.
I know this was off topic, and thanks for letting me rant. As a final note I must say this... we must respect each person as an individual, and whether we agree with their opinions or not, they are entitled to them.
Regards,
jetmaker
It is a shame that the USA is a "salad bowl", and not the "melting pot" that it use to be, or was at least trying to be. I agree that it is important that each culture be able to retain their culture, but that must be secondary. Everyone needs to be working towards a common goal, and not focusing on their self-interests. The US politican scene is now bombarded by special interest groups. Everybody wanting what is best for them, and not thinking about what is best for the nation as a whole. This is not very productive.
A good example of this is the European Union. They are a true "salad bowl" as each culture was well established before the Union formed. However, this has resulted in many squables amungst the nations as they each vi for power. Look at how long it took to approve the Euro currency, and it is still not adopted by Britian. Or the -400M transport... Germany held the program at bay for years due to their own politican system.
I know this was off topic, and thanks for letting me rant. As a final note I must say this... we must respect each person as an individual, and whether we agree with their opinions or not, they are entitled to them.
Regards,
jetmaker
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- #46
What types of engineering jobs are going overseas?
The majority are industry exempt from professional licensing.
So, if you are interested in engineering and would like job security, work in an engineering area that requires professional licensing in that state.
The majority are industry exempt from professional licensing.
So, if you are interested in engineering and would like job security, work in an engineering area that requires professional licensing in that state.
Zapster,
The majority of the engineers in the non-exempt fields are also unlicensed. Lets remember that the only one who is legally required to be licensed is the one who stamps drawings. This could essentially be 1 person out of 100. Design work in the non-exempt fields is also being done overseas, with a stateside PE to do plan review and stamping. Also, the licensing laws could be changed to allow foreign nationals to get USA PE licenses. It wouldn't surprise me if this happens in say 5 years, considering the global nature of the world economy.
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- #48
EddyC,
You state... "Also, the licensing laws could be changed to allow foreign nationals to get USA PE licenses."
I was not aware that foreign nationals could not be licensed now. I have always understood that if the eduction and experience issues met the states requirements, then the engineer may sit for the EIT and PE exams.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
You state... "Also, the licensing laws could be changed to allow foreign nationals to get USA PE licenses."
I was not aware that foreign nationals could not be licensed now. I have always understood that if the eduction and experience issues met the states requirements, then the engineer may sit for the EIT and PE exams.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
Typically, when a licensed engineer stamps plans, specifications, and reports, they have supervised the generation of documents. By careful supervision of the document preparation, the engineer of record can show that they were not grossly negligent should litigation result from the application of the design. On the occasion when a licensed engineer is reviewing documents where they did not supervise the generation of the documents, it would be grossly negligent not to verify every aspect of the design, design calculations, basis of design, etc. In essences, the work would need to be done twice. How can this yield completive pricing?
It is our legal system’s definition between legal liabilities being actual damages or being able to include compensatory damages that help to compel an engineer to avoid being guilty of gross negligence.
Designs that require a licensed engineer’s supervision will not quickly leave the United States. Currently we have engineers working in the exempt fields complaining about their ineligible for licensing because they have not met the requirements for working under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer. Unless the requirements for becoming a licensed engineer change substantially, it will be quite some time before there are a significant number of foreign engineers with United State licenses.
For now, job security is much better for engineering fields that require licensed engineers than the industry exempt fields.
It is our legal system’s definition between legal liabilities being actual damages or being able to include compensatory damages that help to compel an engineer to avoid being guilty of gross negligence.
Designs that require a licensed engineer’s supervision will not quickly leave the United States. Currently we have engineers working in the exempt fields complaining about their ineligible for licensing because they have not met the requirements for working under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer. Unless the requirements for becoming a licensed engineer change substantially, it will be quite some time before there are a significant number of foreign engineers with United State licenses.
For now, job security is much better for engineering fields that require licensed engineers than the industry exempt fields.
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- #50
Steve is right, from where I sit. I am not an American but could move to the states and get my professional license (in most states, anyway). I know a lot of people that have done this!
Zapster and EddyC - Foreign engineers can be licensed in the states. Maybe there are some differnt rules in your state. If you have the experience and the education then why not? Actually in most countries (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) immigration rules make it so you pretty much have to be a professional (doctor, engineer, etc) to qualify to immigrate.
Zapster and EddyC - Foreign engineers can be licensed in the states. Maybe there are some differnt rules in your state. If you have the experience and the education then why not? Actually in most countries (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) immigration rules make it so you pretty much have to be a professional (doctor, engineer, etc) to qualify to immigrate.
QCE,
Don't worry about not being on topic it seems that even the Zapsters's last post dealt with litigation, supervision of drawings, compensatory damages, etc. although he did touch on the thread subject slightly near the end of his post.
I was aware of the topic you mentioned whereas anyone can come to the U.S and work, taking jobs from Americans, but we cannot go to several countries, as you mentioned, without specific skills, education and professional qualification.
It comes back to the old "Level Playing Field" concept again. We welcome all but few welcome us.
Just like the trade laws, environmental laws, etc. it seems the deck is stacked against us, yet we appear to try to help other people succeed as they develop their countries. I know our efforts in other places are not truly altruistic and are many times only political or benefit specific interests in the U.S. -- But our jobs still go elsewhere and to benefit only a few, while the rest try to keep things afloat in America.
ietech
Don't worry about not being on topic it seems that even the Zapsters's last post dealt with litigation, supervision of drawings, compensatory damages, etc. although he did touch on the thread subject slightly near the end of his post.
I was aware of the topic you mentioned whereas anyone can come to the U.S and work, taking jobs from Americans, but we cannot go to several countries, as you mentioned, without specific skills, education and professional qualification.
It comes back to the old "Level Playing Field" concept again. We welcome all but few welcome us.
Just like the trade laws, environmental laws, etc. it seems the deck is stacked against us, yet we appear to try to help other people succeed as they develop their countries. I know our efforts in other places are not truly altruistic and are many times only political or benefit specific interests in the U.S. -- But our jobs still go elsewhere and to benefit only a few, while the rest try to keep things afloat in America.
ietech
Zapster - the thread was totally off topic when I got involved:
"Unless the requirements for becoming a licensed engineer change substantially, it will be quite some time before there are a significant number of foreign engineers with United State licenses."
"Also, the licensing laws could be changed to allow foreign nationals to get USA PE licenses. It wouldn't surprise me if this happens in say 5 years, considering the global nature of the world economy."
All I was saying was that foreign engineers can work in the states and be licensed.
Ietech:
As you may be aware I totally disagree with you saying that the deck is stacked against the richest, strongest most powerful country in the world. Boo-hoo the rest of us really feel for ya all. I will state again that the US does not have the strongest environmental regs and don't forget that the states is usually the bully in most trade disputes.
"Unless the requirements for becoming a licensed engineer change substantially, it will be quite some time before there are a significant number of foreign engineers with United State licenses."
"Also, the licensing laws could be changed to allow foreign nationals to get USA PE licenses. It wouldn't surprise me if this happens in say 5 years, considering the global nature of the world economy."
All I was saying was that foreign engineers can work in the states and be licensed.
Ietech:
As you may be aware I totally disagree with you saying that the deck is stacked against the richest, strongest most powerful country in the world. Boo-hoo the rest of us really feel for ya all. I will state again that the US does not have the strongest environmental regs and don't forget that the states is usually the bully in most trade disputes.
QCE,
I will ask you again as I have in other posts and did not get an answer.
1) Tell me who has more stringent environmental laws than the U.S. --- Please inform me because I would really like to know.
2) I would also like to know if we are losing engineering or manufacturing jobs to those countries with stricter environmental laws. Are they countries that compete for our jobs?
When I write about these things I am specifically relating to countries that our jobs are being outsourced to. Such as Taiwan, India, Indonesia, China, Mexico, the list goes on, and yes the auto industry in Canada. Are environmental laws in Canada stricter than the U.S.?
If you choose the word Bully in the trade issue I can understand that due to the past issues in the lumber industry. But who is really the bully --- when our environmental laws prevented us from cutting adequate amounts of lumber to support the U.S. market.
Who came to the rescue with lumber for us -- Yes our good neighbor Canada --- and boy was the price a big one, since they had a pretty captive market the prices on lumber from Canada skyrocketed. So who was the initial bully there?
I see the Federal Government in the U.S. as an entity that does not take care of the common interest at home, only the interests of the large companies and special interest groups.
They may be bullies but do not bully to "save our jobs" and willingly let American companies go offshore where laws are lax and labor is cheap. Well they are also slowly destroying the market where the thing made overseas are predominantly sold.
The U.S. should "Bully" (your term) more and protect American jobs and industries for Americans.
PLEASE tell me the answers to questions 1 and 2 above I really would like to know the answer.
ietech
I will ask you again as I have in other posts and did not get an answer.
1) Tell me who has more stringent environmental laws than the U.S. --- Please inform me because I would really like to know.
2) I would also like to know if we are losing engineering or manufacturing jobs to those countries with stricter environmental laws. Are they countries that compete for our jobs?
When I write about these things I am specifically relating to countries that our jobs are being outsourced to. Such as Taiwan, India, Indonesia, China, Mexico, the list goes on, and yes the auto industry in Canada. Are environmental laws in Canada stricter than the U.S.?
If you choose the word Bully in the trade issue I can understand that due to the past issues in the lumber industry. But who is really the bully --- when our environmental laws prevented us from cutting adequate amounts of lumber to support the U.S. market.
Who came to the rescue with lumber for us -- Yes our good neighbor Canada --- and boy was the price a big one, since they had a pretty captive market the prices on lumber from Canada skyrocketed. So who was the initial bully there?
I see the Federal Government in the U.S. as an entity that does not take care of the common interest at home, only the interests of the large companies and special interest groups.
They may be bullies but do not bully to "save our jobs" and willingly let American companies go offshore where laws are lax and labor is cheap. Well they are also slowly destroying the market where the thing made overseas are predominantly sold.
The U.S. should "Bully" (your term) more and protect American jobs and industries for Americans.
PLEASE tell me the answers to questions 1 and 2 above I really would like to know the answer.
ietech
As far as environmental protection is concerned, most of the world (including most respectable US scientists) recognises that the biggest danger to the environment is excessive use of fossil fuels and generation of greenhouse gases. AFAIK the US has declined to sign up to the Kyoto accord on reduction of CO2 emissions, due to internal political pressure.
Good Luck
johnwm
Good Luck
johnwm
johnwm,
Where are the most "Green House Gases" produced per-capita?
It is easy to state generalities -- but the fact is that the U.S. is cleaner than most highly populated industrial countries. especially those that are benefiting from the exodus of jobs and manufacturing from the U.S.
Manufacturing leaving the U.S. is, in itself, a statement about this issue and other issues discussed in this thread.
If environmental and labor issues were friendly to industry in the U.S. companies would not be leaving at record rates.
Today's Americans seem to want to give away all the things previous have worked hard for and find almost every excuse to do so.
Americans and American Government should be true and faithful to their own first the rest come second.
Canadians, Indians, Mexicans, Indonesians etc should be faithful to their own as should all other nationalities to theirs.
Where are the most "Green House Gases" produced per-capita?
It is easy to state generalities -- but the fact is that the U.S. is cleaner than most highly populated industrial countries. especially those that are benefiting from the exodus of jobs and manufacturing from the U.S.
Manufacturing leaving the U.S. is, in itself, a statement about this issue and other issues discussed in this thread.
If environmental and labor issues were friendly to industry in the U.S. companies would not be leaving at record rates.
Today's Americans seem to want to give away all the things previous have worked hard for and find almost every excuse to do so.
Americans and American Government should be true and faithful to their own first the rest come second.
Canadians, Indians, Mexicans, Indonesians etc should be faithful to their own as should all other nationalities to theirs.
Although India figures among the top 10 contributors to GHG emissions, its relative share is low in terms of per capita emissions. The current gross emissions per capita in India are only one-sixth of the world average.
I was trying to find a site that would back up your arguement Ietech. the only countries that I could find that have higher GHG emissions per capita than the states are Australia, Canada and Luxenborg.
I was trying to find a site that would back up your arguement Ietech. the only countries that I could find that have higher GHG emissions per capita than the states are Australia, Canada and Luxenborg.
Although India figures among the top 10 contributors to GHG emissions, its relative share is low in terms of per capita emissions. The current gross emissions per capita in India are only one-sixth of the world average.
I was trying to find a site that would back up your arguement Ietech. On some sites I could find countries that have higher GHG emissions per capita than the states - Australia, Canada and Luxenborg. However on most sites the USA is the highest per capita. I really like the slide show on the USA EPA site that lists the states as the highest. It then goes on to show how the states has higher GHG emissions that most continents. Maybe you should do some homework Ietech. We wouldn't want any generalities on this site. I'm sure people making these outrageous claims have all studied environmental science at a university. Studying environmental science on CNN just doesn't cut it.
PS - It has already been proven in the courts that the USA lumber tariffs againest Canadian lumber were BS. Now the US has to pay back a whole shwack of money. Save them jobs???
QCE
I was trying to find a site that would back up your arguement Ietech. On some sites I could find countries that have higher GHG emissions per capita than the states - Australia, Canada and Luxenborg. However on most sites the USA is the highest per capita. I really like the slide show on the USA EPA site that lists the states as the highest. It then goes on to show how the states has higher GHG emissions that most continents. Maybe you should do some homework Ietech. We wouldn't want any generalities on this site. I'm sure people making these outrageous claims have all studied environmental science at a university. Studying environmental science on CNN just doesn't cut it.
PS - It has already been proven in the courts that the USA lumber tariffs againest Canadian lumber were BS. Now the US has to pay back a whole shwack of money. Save them jobs???
QCE
QCE,
As I said thanks for the link it was interesting and I will read further into it this is part of what i have been askin for for several mnths in different threads.
Although the link is informative it doesn't address per-capita in major manufacturing competitors with the U.S. This is what I am especially interested in and I will see if I can find something that deals with those countries also.
Yes, I agree we should "Save Them Jobs" after all if America fails so does much of the world.
Wasn't aware of the cout decision lumber tariffs --- guess we came out on the short end of the stick again.
Keep whackin' away at the U.S. if you haven't noticed your economy is highly dependant on ours -- it seems you would hope we succeed alongside you.
ietech
As I said thanks for the link it was interesting and I will read further into it this is part of what i have been askin for for several mnths in different threads.
Although the link is informative it doesn't address per-capita in major manufacturing competitors with the U.S. This is what I am especially interested in and I will see if I can find something that deals with those countries also.
Yes, I agree we should "Save Them Jobs" after all if America fails so does much of the world.
Wasn't aware of the cout decision lumber tariffs --- guess we came out on the short end of the stick again.
Keep whackin' away at the U.S. if you haven't noticed your economy is highly dependant on ours -- it seems you would hope we succeed alongside you.
ietech
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