Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs 55

[havesealwilltravel]

A friend of mine sent me the following link:

http://www.ieeeusa.org/forum/POLICY/2003/061803.html

It is depressing but true. The current high unemployment among engineers is going to continue and not only that it will get worse.

One of the threads in this forum concerns itself with encouraging women to go into engineering. If you care about the person, be honest with them (and yourself). Engineering as a career for a large number of people is over. A bright young person would be smarter to pursue another profession.

I don't believe that a person is born an engineer and will only be happy if they become an engineer. Obviously, if current trends continue, a lot of engineers are going to have to seek happiness in another career if they want to earn a living.

Globalization is good only for individuals with substantial capital to invest overseas. For the rest of us who work for a living it has done nothing but lower wages and increase unemployment.

Please read the article !!!!!!!

 

[Berserk]

http://arstechnica.com/archive/news/1062721585.html

 

[funnelguy]

Sorry, I thought the article provided by Beserk's link was trite and completely without any real analysis. There was next to no mention of the worker's or domestic economy's difficulties resulting from this continued trend. Certainly there was no analysis. The only consideration is for the short term gains of the outsourcing company and the less than equitable gains for the new source country. This is type of pablum typically spewed by spokespersons for short sighted gain.

Not a reflection on you, Beserk. I just wonder what passes for journalism of any sort today.

 

[Speedy]

MTE85DRM,
'The price of housing is ridiculous' - I'm glad you said that. I've been saying the same thing for the last 5 years. I get slated by my friends for saying so. This was caused by low interest rates when we joined the Euro. Ireland went through a boom while mainland Europe was in a slump.Hence the low rates, as fixed by the larger countries in Europe.

Education is still free but they intend to introduce 'income means testing' soon.

 

[MTE85DRM]

Speedy:

The prices for housing in Ontario - especially Toronto - exploded in the late 80's due to baby boomer and good economic times. Housing prices increased 300 or 400% in about a five year period. Then the 91 recession hit and the prices fell out of the market. There were people with mortgages for $400,000 and a house worth about $200,000.

Watch out for the bust !

 

[stormin1234]

A message forwarded to me recently:

"This came off the Fluor stock message board. Enjoy!!

07/15/03 12:50 pm

Msg: 5208 of 5213

Long-Term Sentiment: Strong Sell

Fluor management is following a path of internal destruction and has assumed the posture of see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil. This means they
have so intensely focused on the workshare profit margin that they have assumed that critical functions of the company will perform as well overseas as in America while still supplying the customer with the same quality. This
thinking has blinded the Fluor management group to the serious problems that have been and will continue to hinder current and future business operations. The current philosophy is to Increase workshare to the point
that little or no work is done in America, but rather is done in foreign countries to take advantage of the lower wages and tax incentives (3% foreign tax vs. 35% national tax).While projects done in foreign countries
have been moderately successful to date, Fluor Management is pushing the envelope on future work.

The workforce of Fluor's future lacks experience and has a very high turnover rate that will drastically affect Fluor's ability to provide a quality product.


Furthermore, much of the foreign production is of poor quality and frequently behind schedules dictated by the clients.As has been shown in the past with American workers, more laborers will not solve those problems, but will add to the confusion and reduce productivity.

The bottom line to the foreign labor force is that it will cost Fluor money and future contracts.The poor quality product delivered behind schedule will result in lawsuits, no-pay contracts, and excessive rework. When word hits the streets about Fluor's product quality and schedule
deviations it will affect future contracts with potential clients. While these points have been noted and brought to the attention of lower management, they y are intimidated by the workshare philosophy piloted by corporate
management and will not alert upper management to the critical problems (Speak No Evil). And upper management at Fluor has turned a deaf ear to any criticism of the workshare process (Hear No Evil). Stock Holder attitude and
trends have shown support for the short-term profit gains that are the driving force behind Fluor's workshare (See No Evil). Read 'em and weep??.you aren't holding a full house."

 

[ietech]

There are so many good points made in the above posts - I wish that our gov't would stop pandering to the corporations and impose some sort of penalty for each job sent offshore. I know that this would be passed to the customer but maybe it would send a message to the corporations that if the gov't is doing something it must mean that public pressure is growing to equal the pressures corps. put on the gov't.

The really sad part of jobs being sent offshore, in addition to engineering and technical jobs, is that they are mostly the blue collar type industrial jobs. These are the people who really made America great and corporations successful with their hard work and belief in the American dream that "If I work hard I have a chance to succeed".

Politicians continually tell us that many thousands of jobs have been created to replace the ones lost. Well it is true that many jobs are being created in the service sector at half (or less)of the wage earned by manufacturing types and many temp jobs are created in clerical, janitorial, warehousing etc.. How does one survive and raise a family on $8/hr to $11/hr--- I guess there are some who can?????

I reluctantly predict that if the current trend continues that the third world countries in the world will achieve economic and political equality With America. NOT BECAUSE THEY ACHIEVED ANYTHING --- BUT BECAUSE OUR GOV'T. AND MAJOR COMPANIES CONTRIBUTED IN DRAGGING US DOWN TO A THIRD WORLD LEVEL. In twenty years our children will be living in a country where the majority of its' people are struggling for a basic existence.

Sorry if I seem negative, but as hard as I try I can't see the future as a good one for the average person in America.

 

[rhodie]

ietech: Man, you nailed it. Such is life in a Plutocracy.

 

[ietech]

Thanks Rhodie,

It's nice to know that someone feels the same. I am one of those who have been somewhat fortunate in life and generally associate with the same. I find it very difficult at my economic level (just average nothing big) to find anyone who agrees with my thoughts on this subject as they only see their current comfort and not the future of our country.

 

[pablo02]

I have been scolded and beat-up (verbally) for over 10 years for predicting what is currently happening (and for what I predict in the future)-- first of all, I do not fault other countries or other peoples wanting a better life, it's natural and those countries have some brilliant hard-working people there, too.. second, this country still is an envy to many in that it is generally only here that the individual has an opportunity to become "rich" or at least to an economic equivalent to most residents (to rise above his/her birth level)...

but, I give my dire predictions, not because of my position or what has occurred in my life -- I, too, have been fortunate in life and expect to be comfortable for a long time... but I still have concerns for those I grew up with, for my friends, for my kids... life will become hard for most of them here in the US (compared to what we have now)and, yes, I blame big corporations, I blame the government, I blame those who grew up in the 80's who have never seen the effects of the Great Depression, life after WWII, nor the recessions of the late 50's and early 70's... who think only of themselves and let everyone else pay the price...

so what if we lay off 6,000 people, I still get my stock and my bonuses and live the good life -- what happened to caring about people in general? I directed the layoffs of a large segment of my department a number of years ago -- I laid the guy off who lived next door to my parents and whose kids grew up with my younger brothers and sisters, I laid off friends I'd known for years... and it ate my lunch because, it was not done to save money, it was done strictly to give the Wall Street boys a "good feeling" that we were taking steps to enhance our financial stature... (we could have laid the whole company off and not saved 10 cents on the stock...) obviously, my opinions of Corporate America have slid to the sewer over the years...

 

[EddyC]

The outsourcing of jobs to other countries is as great a threat to the US as terrorists are. Shortly after 9/11 happened, corporations were issuing statements of national unity, all while laying off people. In my opinion, the corporations are penny wise and dollar foolish. Looks like the US is going to end up committing economic suicide, courtesy of the corporations. I have already contacted the white house and the democratic party, petitioning them to stop outsourcing. I recommend that everyone else do the same. Only if we make ourselves be heard will we be able to stop this outsourcing foolishness.

 

[rhodie]

EddyC

I wholeheartedly agree with you: we should speak up. However, we need to remember the "Golden Rule - He who has the gold, makes the rules."

The corporations speak far louder to our politicians than we do. The way to make yourself truely "heard" is to buy domestic where possible. That practice has changed my spending habits and patterns dramatically. Let the discount retailers know that "Low Prices" aren't always the best option. Keep Americans working.

A relevant story: While I am not familiar in any way with the San Francisco Bay Area, the following article reports that to just "scrape by", a family in the area requires $70,000 year. That $11/hr service job looks pretty pathetic.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/10/01/BA14211.DTL&q=q

We need to start thinking in the long term as a country.

 

[GregLocock]

Well, I hope you guys are redirecting your share portfolios/401ks to the companies that are employing Americans, and not sourcing overseas.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[Zapster]

Yep, I am sure that in the land of opportunity that all of those who posted above, promoting more government intervention, are clamoring to purchase products made in America. No Wal-Mart shopping for them. Many of those people complaining above are buying American in some token way; however, under careful analysis most fall short of supporting blue collar Americans. By nature most people like to be frugal, and it is shopping for value that is exposing our problem. If buying American products was a good value, we would not be having this discussion.

It is absurd to blame the government for lack of polices to correct the problem. We are responsible for our government policies. Look in the mirror if you want to see who is responsible for our manufacturing jobs going overseas. There are too many people in denial about their participation in this problem.

I see those interested in a government solution to solve the exodus of blue collar jobs as an attempt to protect their perceived piece of the pie. After all, they believe they earned it. Even if it were true that corporate America is subsidized, shifting the subsidization from the corporate entities to the blue collar workers will solve nothing. The problem is that our government is involved in too many subsidies. One more subsidy will not fix this problem. Instead, it will only add more fuel to the fire.

 

[PSE]

The prevailing corporate philosophy seems to be make something and sell it to the U.S. If they can do it cheaper than a US company then it is natural for a US firm to respond by "lowering costs" generally through outsourcing. In effect, doubling the drain on the US.

The US can only drive the world economy for so long. When the american consumer becomes sated (if it ever happens)they will stop buying. If everything you own is already new, why buy more? If countries outside the US do not develop their own or markets other than the US, their own collapse will be terrible to behold. If you put all your eggs in one basket and it gets overturned, you likely will have nothing left. Non US countries need to develop non US markets. Compete in the world, not just the US.

Regards,

 

[funnelguy]

Greg, yes. My family has done just that.

Zapster, you said, "It is absurd to blame the government for lack of polices to correct the problem. We are responsible for our government policies. ....

I see those interested in a government solution to solve the exodus of blue collar jobs as an attempt to protect their perceived piece of the pie."

Of course, that is the role of government. ALL governments. Safety, security, and economic prosperity for it's citizens.

 

[Zapster]

Funnelguy

So to protect the manufacturing segment of our economy at the expense of the service sector is ok with you. What do we do, “cheat the other guy and pass the saving onto us?” That type of success I am not interested in. Let’s stop all of the government subsidies.

Your thought, “Of course, that is the role of government. ALL governments. Safety, security, and economic prosperity for it's citizens” is leans towards socialism.

I do not want a government that tries to provide economic prosperity for all its citizens. I do not want a socialist government. I would like a government to provide an atmosphere where those who choose to work, and work hard, have a chance at prosperity. Prosperity should not be an entitlement which is in contrast to many Americans core beliefs. Now, we live in a society where those who work hard must share their economic rewards with the slackers, and special interests.

 

[ietech]

I would not suggest that we subsidize any company that sends jobs offshore. I suggest that our gov't protect the well being of our economy and people, a start would be to penalize the companies that move jobs away. These companies must participate in the improvement of America and not just reap the rewards. Yes I will pay more for an American made product, even though they are very hard to find.

Zapster:
We need to protect all sectors of our workforce manufacturing, technical, service, sales, etc. etc. Let the other countries build there own success with their own innovation, imagination and sweat. Yes, they deserve a good life too and if they work hard they will get it. DON'T TAKE OURS AND THEN SAY "SEE HOW GOOD WE ARE DOING"

 

[BJC]

Funnelguy
I don't think the founding father's were socialist - but fromt he begining they took steps to "promote the general welfare"


"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

 

[Iskit4iam]

Can you create wealth without manufacturing something?

Its easy to blame someone else for our problems. I certainly don't think big business and government "leaders" have done anything to make things better for the average person. Who among us goes to the store and pays more for the same quality and functionality? I don't. Tariffs and trade barriers force prices higher for the same functionality and quality. We have to be willing to pay more for "made in the USA" with a consquential reduction in our standard of living. Or will our standard of living be higher if we export manufacturing? I don't think anyone knows the answer.

But whoever thinks they know the answer better be right. Executives exporting jobs are also exporting the wages of their customers. The world economy depends on us buying stuff. We could all end up in the third world.

Emotionally, I'm pissed that countries that couldn't drag their own ass out of poverty want to get there on our backs. China was civilized for hundreds of years before 1776. Why aren't they the world's largest economy? The birth place of mankind was in the Middle East, how come Western Civilization created markets bigger than the town sqare?

 

[funnelguy]

BJC,
Where did I say the founding fathers were socialist? I think you have me confused with one of Zapster's statements.

BTW, I really liked the part about "promoting the general welfare"!

Japan, for one, is all to familiar with how closely their econmy rises and falls with the fortunes of the US economy. Why is it that we have these haters who insist that the US provide them with a market for their goods? Suppose, for a moment, that the US completely closed it's borders to imports. What would happen to the world economy?

Why exactly should your neighbor, a worker at an appliance manufacturer, lose his position to low wage overseas labor? Oh yeah, YOU Zapster are entitled to a cheaper washing machine. That no account "slacker" doesn't deserve to keep his job. Those overseas workers are more efficient (cheaper).

Now, Zapster, the US economy was riding a wave of consumer spending for something like 8 years. Real wages went down, but that was OK right? Because overseas outsourcing to cheap labor markets drove the price of that DVD player from $80 to $50. You still got yours, right?

CEO's, encouraged by past "successes" start to outsource all sorts of new labor costs. Computer programmers, call center technicians, CAD drafting, etc.

Maybe your job didn't get outsourced yet, Zapster. But it can be. Or perhaps you'll be replaced by a "visiting worker". Maybe you don't believe that's possible. Maybe you bought into the lies about "sending the low tech jobs to Mexico and keeping the high tech jobs here." More blatantly racist words were never spoken.

Maybe you won't lose your job. Maybe the town you live in has to lay off teachers or police because of the loss of tax revenues. Those slackers at the steel mill deserved to lose their jobs anyway. Right, Zapster? Who did they think they were, when Mexicans will work for $8 a day?

Don't lecture me about socialism. What you want is anarchy as long as it lines YOUR pocket.

China will not reduce our standard of living to their level. They need us to have enough money to buy their goods. Something our domestic corporations don't seem to understand. The economy will turn around and run again when consumers have more income and can begin to reduce their debt. Even the slackers. End of rant.