Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs 55

[havesealwilltravel]

A friend of mine sent me the following link:

http://www.ieeeusa.org/forum/POLICY/2003/061803.html

It is depressing but true. The current high unemployment among engineers is going to continue and not only that it will get worse.

One of the threads in this forum concerns itself with encouraging women to go into engineering. If you care about the person, be honest with them (and yourself). Engineering as a career for a large number of people is over. A bright young person would be smarter to pursue another profession.

I don't believe that a person is born an engineer and will only be happy if they become an engineer. Obviously, if current trends continue, a lot of engineers are going to have to seek happiness in another career if they want to earn a living.

Globalization is good only for individuals with substantial capital to invest overseas. For the rest of us who work for a living it has done nothing but lower wages and increase unemployment.

Please read the article !!!!!!!

 

[mabn]

jmw

You have no idea about the conditions of child labour, and the reasoning behind it. I suggest you choose the topics you defend a little more carefully.

 

[jmw]

Mabn,
please read exactly what i said, not what you thought i said.
I didn't say i agreed with child labour per se but what i said is that in some cultures and economies the alternatives are sometimes worse.
I don't see it as the status quo either. If you look at everything else and take it all together you will see that part of the problem being addressed in this thread is why jobs are going overseas. It is because they can be done overseas. It won't take forever for standards of living to improve in all countries.
Take a look at the industrialised countries and see how short a time ago child labour was prevalent with 16 hour 6 day working weeks and what we today consider terrible working conditions. One Mill owner worked out that the children working on the looms walked around twenty miles a day. This isn't the dark ages, this is the 19th century. In those times and in those circumstances there were two choices, work or starve. That child labour no longer exists is a moot point, even in these societies. It depends on where you draw the lines in your definitions. Many of us don't have to look too far back to know that we enjoy good eductaions because our parents went without. In the depression era in America to be poor and homeless, travelling around looking for itinerent work, everybody worked. Children as well. The same is true in Bitain at the same time and later. The poor families from Londons East End would add to their income by hop picking or fruit picking in Kent. Again, the whole family, the old and the young. I am saying that in living memory in some of the richest cultures on earth, child labour and a whole hots of other problems di exist and still do, to a degree. The streets of London aren't paved with Gold, the USA is a mythical land of opportunity. The world is a real place in which terrible things happen.
Child labour, poverty, starvation, malnutrition are unique to tht third world and weren't wiped out centuries ago. Poverty exists everywhere. Survival comes first. Some people still would rather work than not. Take away even that chance and you reduce families to starvation.
Unless you have an alternative.
If you have, tell us about it and tell us why there is still child labour if these countries have a good health care and un-employment scheme, a welfare state.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Some of those good intentions have caused disasters for the very people they intended to help. This is true of much of the work done to try and alleviate food shortages in third world countries. For example, take a look at the grain supplied to Indias seed crop. Next years harvest seemed a long way off when compared with a present hunger so most of it was eaten, this was unfortunate because it was treated with pesticides which caused even worse problems.
We would all like to see an end to child labour and any number of other ills in society but don't cut the lifeline when you have nothing to offer to replace it. Control it and eradicate in a controlled way.
Time and sensible concern will do more good than adopting. You don't get rid of problems by hiding them or taking the high moral ground. If the solution were easy, there wouldn't be a problem. But until we have solutions, don't lets make things worse. If people can help alleviate the conditions, they should do so.

 

[Speedy]

I agree with JMW on this issue. Child labour is a reality in these poorer countries, the alternative is quite simply starvation. Child slavery..now that's a completely different matter entirely. I also speak as someone who spent a great deal of my youth working on our home farm while my Dad was out working a 9 to 5 job (actually make that 9 to 8), 7 days a week.

You know I could never see what was all that wrong with prison labour in China either. Let prisoners contribute to their own keep, learn a useful skill aswell.

 

[Scorpio7]

IETech,

Yes, I like in the San Francisco Bay Area and do some boating.

TO ALL Others:

I strongly believe in protecting the environment, equal rights, and all that other stuff our young men and women are currently dieing for in foreign lands. But I have a strong dislike for people that use the law for their personal benefit or to promote an agenda like “zero growth” when that law was intended for a different purpose.

We have too many lawyers in this country and too many of them have absolutely no ethics; they just want to make money. They add significant cost to everything we do and provide very little benefit. When I said that we should review environmental regulations and have sunset clauses in them I meant that for the benefit of society. But, we have legislators that for the most part are lawyers and they want full employment for their profession.

Consider what could a lawyer do that is worth ten times per hour as much as an engineer?

So more laws are not the solution to our problems. If we all were not so lazy we would look at what the people we elect are actually doing and how they vote on issues. That information should be available as public records. But instead we just read the newspaper or watch TV and go for the guy or gal with the best looks and quickest wit. We accept what we read in the papers or hear on TV as being correct yet if we have knowledge about a specific area we know that the article is inaccurate. That coupled with the facts that the media wants to sell advertising, most reporters have no knowledge of science or economics, and one quarter of California’s population has not graduated from high school exacerbates the quality of information problem.

I had done some traveling and there is no way we will solve the world’s problems with laws and regulations. As others have said, child labor is a preferable alternative to starving to death. Spend four weeks on Mainland China and you will understand what I am saying. I cannot even comprehend what it must be like in the less developed areas of the world; a mud hut and a bowl of rice would be a luxury.

I firmly believe that we would not have the environmental rules and regulations we currently have in place if our country was not as wealthy as it currently is. Here in Marvelous Marin County we have one of the slowest population growth rates in any metropolitan area and one of the highest costs of housing of any place in the world. Why? Because we have a bunch of wealthy people who have nothing else to do except fight growth and that is why home prices are so high.

More later – go to go … Oh yes I do have a distrust of lawyers and the media, they both profit by perpetuating controversy; engineers profit by solving problems.

 

[BJC]

Scorpio7.
Agree with you totally. It's interesting to research where much of the superfund money goes. If I remember correctly of the first 10 bilion ( early 90) over 90% went to lawyers. Something less than 10% went to putting shovels in the ground and actually doing something. It hasn't gotten any better. Environmental protection and cleanup is mostly a pork barrel for Lawyers. That's what happens when the goverment is run by lawyers.

 

[jmw]

And who wrote and signed the constitution? a fair proportion were lawyers, i would guess. Anyone know for sure? Button Gwinnet, John Hancock and all....

 

[ietech]

Speedy:

I agree that prisoner lobor is possibly a good thing. It should be limited to prisoners doing work for the government they offended, yes, they should be paid, but also be required to pay something for their keep, it's a good trade off for the training and aquiring of skills. They should not be free labor for private industry giving the benefiting private company an unfair competitive edge.


QCE:

I don't feel picked on, I just was referring to the way you picked one sentence and one question to focus on out of the entire post. Then responding with "Aren't 99% of Americans Immigrants". No 99% are not, I would say that most Americans come from immigrant stock somewhere in the personal history, but the majority of folks here are natural citizens and many without much knowledge if their ancestry.

I am not expressing opposition to Bush nor am I advocating the removal of environmental laws. I have said, all industrial countries should have to submit to the same laws equally in respect to manufacturing. Thus, the term level playing field. The Bush administration is not responsible for the existing environmental laws. Actually I applaud him on his position regarding oil drilling.

Yes, I do believe all politicians are highly influenced by, not only environmental groups, but religious, business, manufacturing, and especially insurance lobbies. I believe I addressed some of this in my other posts.

Where did I say that we should allow Europeans but not Asians? I read my previous posts again and am unable to find that statement. If it there I retract it. I think all people should be able to VISIT here, but the jobs should go to "Qualified Americans" FIRST. Yes, an exhaustive effort should be made to find American talent first. If there are no folks who are already citizens, either naturalized or by birth, then hire alien talent. Absolutely no jobs should be sent offshore -- for any reason.

QCE -- "Thank you" for sharing some of your complete thoughts and opinions, although, I dissagree with you in many cases I appreciate it when you give more than one critical sentence and no explanation or example of the criticism. Sorry for the "Greenies" label, it's not a good way to communicate.

All:
To those who defend or rationalize child labor. Yes, you are right it does exist and the reasons stated in previous posts are correct. But, the child is merely exploited to benefit the employer, not enhance the childs life. When the first child dies he/she is replaced with another, who is also just to be used until he/she dies.

This is a multi-faceted problem including: economics, cultural, government, religion, poverty, greed. Yes, an unfortunate reality that will never go away. BUT WE AMERICANS AND OUR GOVERNMANT SHOULD DEMAND THAT COMPANIES USING THIS DISPICABLE PRACTICE BE BANNED FROM DOING BUSINESS IN THE U.S. Oherwise we are just as guilty a participant, by omission of protest.

 

[ietech]

Is it a ray of hope???? See rhodie's post in the following thread

javascriptpenindex(450,350,'

http://www.tipmaster.com/includes/refinfo.cfm?w=450&h=350')

 

[ietech]

Sorry --- the link posted above is incorrect

Please try this one:

thread730-69591

 

[funnelguy]

ietech, I'm not sure you're aware that the thread you referenced is 5 months old. I bumped it by adding a post at the end. Regardless, are you referring to the article Rhodie linked to?

For those who would like a little info on child labor, go to the following link...

http://www.hrw.org/children/labor.htm

 

[ietech]

Funnelguy -- Yes I am aware of that --- I am really trying to see if anyone thinks tht this stuff is beginning to become a reality and how others on this thread feel about it. There are folks participating in this thread who might have missed it.

After reading it in this time frame I tend to agree with your assessment of the original post. That's why I included several ????? at the end of my previous comment.

Thsnks for the link --- I will have a chance to review it tomorrow morning.

ietech

 

[EngineerDave]

Guys, maybe because it's a new year and I get all sappy and sentimental.

But as a Christian and it doesn't matter what your faith is, you hate to see poverty and starvation worldwide. On one hand, I'm sure some of the big whigs in the US that outsourced jobs use that as justification for screwing their fellow countrymen. I mean they can always go to that village in a 3rd world country that's making widgets for them and feel like they made a contribution.

But what truly is the answer? Should we shun materialism all together?

Let's be honest, materialism is a big problem in every country. We always want things that are bigger, more expensive and better than our friends, co-workers and neighbors.

My advice. Find a simple wife (I need to practice what I preach here) or husband, create a simple life and work hard. There will always be enough for those who give back more.

Let's give up the glamourous notion that we are better than others, and try to help others. Nothing but the greatest spiritual and financial wealth will result.

Now go ahead flame away.....

 

[ietech]

Funnelguy:

Thanks for the link --- I have read it thoroughly, and I am even more appalled than I have ever been.

To reiterate my position "The U.S. should allow no products or services from companies who participate in this activity to be imported to this country".

I would especially include American companies who take advantage of child labor in their off-shore facilities. I have no proof but suspect there are American companies doing this.

We should not engage in ANY trade with countries that are aware of and support this within in their borders and do nothing to eliminate it.

Thanks

ietech

 

[ietech]

jmw writes:

"And who wrote and signed the constitution? a fair proportion were lawyers, i would guess. Anyone know for sure? Button Gwinnet, John Hancock and all...."

Based on the only document I have seen that those who may have been lawyers signed I do not believe that their intentions were dishonerable, litigious or greedy. I think these folks had a basic sensibility for the good of all people especially in our newly found country.

Scorpio7 --- BJC
I certainly agree with the basic tone of your posts and definately do not think Lawyers or worth more than engineers, on the contrary. I would say engineers contribute far more to a successful society than most lawyers could even dream of.

I believe, many lawyers, (not all or even large percentage) heve a very different agenda. Maybe greed, ego, power --- who knows what motivates folks these days. I'm sure there are some honerable lawyers.

 

[JoeTank]

Earlier, it was asked how many lawyers signed the Declaration of Independence. Of the 56 signers, 24 were lawyers. I "asked Jeeves", he knew.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[BJC]

SteveBraune and JMW
How many "majors" were availabel to educated men 200 + years ago? Law, Philosophy and Divinity and maby a couple of other areas. No engineering, no business, no agriculture etc. Learned men studied law. Check the Yale catalog for 1750-60, there were about 400 students and not a lot of options for study.
My point was that the leagal system has evolved apart from the justice system. IF yolu think there were a lot of lawyers in the constitutional conventions check out todays congress. They always seem to make sure legislation has enough complexity to assue a few lawyers are needed.
Doy your own research on the Superfund act, OSHA, Endangered Species Act etc. You'll find a lot of it is make work for lawyers.
The men who signed the constitution were learned men of principal, I wonder how many of them would have studied law if they had the options availabe now in higher education.
A lot of work may be going offshore just because we have a litegious inefficient system.

 

[JoeTank]

BJC,
I have no idea how many majors were available 200+ years ago, my alma mater course book doesn't go back that far. However, I am under the impression that many of the signers were truly Renaissance men. Men of great learning in many disciples. For example Tom Jefferson was a lawyer, architect, writer, inventor, business man, politician, etc, etc. Ditto, guys like Ben Franklin. I'm sure self study was part of it, but they must have had some other sources.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[arunmrao]

Sorry I missed earlier threads on child labor.. This is a social stigma,and constitutionally banned in India. But the practice of child labor is prevalent in areas where there is illiteracy and poverty. They are used in farming, construction industry,textile industry, woolen garments and carpet making. Normally in traditional industries they are used. The choice is between employing a child labor or starvation. This goes on due to exploitation by local politicians and goons to promote their self interests.As long as they are illiterate,it serves the political bosses to get their valuable votes based on caste factor.

In my factory to overcome this I have provided free education to one child of an employee upto 10th grade.

Please go ahead and fire away!!,I shall run for shelter.

I shall not discuss about the role of foreign companies to employ child labor. This is not done directly but through associate firms.

 

[funnelguy]

arunmrao, why would anyone fire away at you? You stated, "In my factory to overcome this I have provided free education to one child of an employee upto 10th grade".

Good for you, you are helping to provide a solution! A star for that!

 

[ietech]

arunmrao,

India and the entire world need more good folks like you.

Respectfully

ietech