engineering outlook for us young guys 19

[kchida]

I need opinions from experienced engineers. You guys have seen the short-term and long-term trends. Do you all notice a trend that might indicate that engineering will be a krappy choice of occupation in the coming decades? I've just come into the field, so my perspective is skewed.

I'm turning 25 in a month, so I have a good 40 years to go in my career (that's a whole lot longer than the amount of time I've been hanging out on this planet). I need some serious advice. Should I jump ship now and do something else besides engineering? This would require me to go back to school.

Medicine is strong in the states and will probably remain so, at least for my lifetime (maybe?). Well, what about biomedical engineering then? Could this possibly be a future engineering "oasis"?

Keep in mind that I have high expectations for my future standards of living. At the peak of my career, I'd like to maintain a lifestyle comparable to that of somebody today earning $200k (household), in Southern California. Again, this will be based on a dual-income, so I would need to be making at least half of that. I don't want my kids to grow up in a poor household. I want to ensure that they have access to things that I didn't have.

Seriously, should I defect to another field? Should I throw it all away, run and never look back? I think I'm good for at least 10 more years, but will I hit an unavoidable roadblock at that time. What would you do in my situation?

 

[CarolinaPE]

You always have to consider when the information was gathered and or published. I saw something the other day giving the median home price for my town. It seemed really low. After digging further I found that the data was from a 2000 census. YOu have to watch those internet calculators and graphs!

 

[PZas]

cuky, your first link list the average with the base titles around 67k for all disciplines of plain "engineer". I completely believe this. However if you factor in the additional pay for lead, chief, supervisor, manager, PE, etc (all titles that are likely left in another column although they make up a large % of older engineers) you will likely have an average around 75k across the entire board. That leaves the older and more prosperous crowd making in the 90+ area.

Your second link is for entry level positions. Even this link puts the average around 47-50k. Are you telling us that the average entry level position makes 5-10k less than the overall average.

I also have a problem with online salary serveys. Do they know if you have a degree or not? Check out the serveys done by processing magazine, asme, and the like. Otherwise you run into the problem of people without degrees saying they are engineers and messing up the servey. For instance 60% or so of the people in my company with "engineer" in the title have no degree of any kind...I will not expand upon my feelings about this policy

 

[billgl]

I enjoyed reading the posts in this room. Recently I've been thinking about most of these same things, and contemplating career changes.

I would say that most people who got out of highschool when I did (1998) had money somewhat in mind when they chose engineering. (And there's nothing wrong with that. For us non-trust fund babies the main purpose of a job is to make money) Unfortunately things have changed drastically since then. Engineers in my graduating class got double screwed in that the economy was in the tank, so we had hell finding a job, and then when we did find one, it was usually in the higher cost areas of the country. Then of course housing skyrocketed before we could save up the cash for a downpayment. My uncle graduated with a BSME 1970ish. He bought a lake house (with no wife or roommates to chip in) roughly 20 miles west of Milwaukee a year after he graduated. I work outside of DC and could possibly buy a trailer in the sticks.

From what I can see, one good thing about engineering is that you pretty much make the same kind of money everywhere, meaning I could easily get my DC salary matched in Oklahoma. No lawyer here can claim that.
Along those same lines though, somebody above mentioned GE staying out of high cost areas. I suppose thats why they kept their healthcare division in Milwaukee, but I haven't seen an influx of jobs to middle america so I would safely assume that most companies are not following this philosophy. I went to school in the midwest and I would guess more than half my classmates went to the coasts (mainly east) after graduation. With that in mind, you probably have a lot more job security in LA than in middle america. And if you do go for an engineering job out in the sticks to improve your living standards, you'd better pray there's never a layoff, because you're guaranteed to have to move for your next job, possibly at your own expense. And good luck finding your spouse a decent job.

Also, in my opinion engineering is way too specialized a career considering that you don't get paid that much more for the experience. I mean 5 years experience doing analysis isn't equivalent to 5 doing design, and really, 5 years analyzing brake disks isn't the same as 5 years analyzing airplane wings, or 5 years using NASTRAN vs Dyna. I love to look at some of the outrageously specific stuff some companies ask for in their want ads knowing that there might be 10 people in the whole country who qualify for some of these jobs, and even if they found one of them they're not about to shower them with cash. If you are lucky enough to have significant skills in something thats really in demand, then you can probably get a decent salary, but 100K for an engineer is rare. Your best bet for that type of money (but staying in engineering) is getting into management. Technical experts with salaries like that are uncommon. There are about 4000 engineers/scientists at the lab I work at (both govt and contractor). I would guess there are 40 or 50 that pull in 6 figs, mostly managers.

Most of the people I work with (young or old) would probably say they enjoy their work, but by no means are they well paid, so I don't buy the myth that if you do what you love the money will come later, as some of these people have been doing this their whole career.

Another good thing from what I've seen so far is that engineering workload is pretty low. I remember in school hearing about people in San Jose putting in huge hours, but in the defense industry from what I've seen most people do 40 to 45. New lawyers or accountants work far more hours than we do, and doctors have to do residency (indentured servitude) for 3-7 years, so at least we don't have to do that crap.

For me the main reason I want out is that the salary doesn't buy me the standard of living I expected going in, and the work isn't as enjoyable/challenging as I had expected. I could probably correct this by going back to the midwest or changing jobs, but I'm also worried about outsourcing and H1Bs. Engineers really have a lot working against them in this economy. And I don't think I'm being overly pessimistic either. Check out the labor department forcast for engineering jobs in the next 10 years. According to them the only thing worth doing is software.

 

[CarolinaPE]

Digging around a little more on cuky's posted websites at careerjournal.com found some interesting info. For starters, some of the data presented was from salaryexpert.com. I am a mechanical so I put in mechanical engineer for my area. It came up with 47-50K which I believe is about what the young whipper snappers out of school with 0 years experience are getting. But the salary wizard does not exactly state "what" we are looking at (experienced, entry level, etc). On the same careerjournal.com website it gives tons of links to other salary surveys that show the avg salary to be about 50% higher than the salaryexpert.com number. Doggone online calculators!!!!

 

[cuky2000]

Hello Pza,

I understand your filling about people without qualifications. For your information, more than 22% of all individuals employed in science and engineering occupations have less than a bachelor's degree education, according with the National Science Foundation. It is unfortunately that this group of people making salary not to far apart from the salary earned by engineers with bachelor degree. (See graph below)
[blue][sub]More than four million individuals with at least a high school education were employed in science and engineering (S&E) occupations in the US as of April 2003. Within this group, a substantial proportion, 22 percent, reported either a high school diploma (5 percent) or an associate's degree (17 percent) as their highest level of educational attainment (table 1). Among the remaining proportion, 48 percent held a bachelor's degree, about 22 percent held a master's degree, 7 percent held a doctorate, and about 2 percent held a professional degree.[/sub][/blue]

I had to confess that I also have a problem with salary surveys and data that sometime is used to keep the engineering salary low. However, I should say that the data presented appear to be reasonable with deviation as expected but accurate enough to extract decent trends and conclusions regarding the present and outlook for engineering job market in the short and midterm.

To minimize any controversial issue regarding validity of update information, here is recent salary from over 800 advertised engineering positions covering many disciplines. Beware that those figures are based in the maximum range advertised to attract candidates. (Actual salaries are in a range with minimum salary significantly lower than the maximum advertised)

 

[moltenmetal]

So I see that a PhD in engineering has a NEGATIVE value as far as future earnings (on average) are concerned! Not too surprising I guess, with all those professors in there!

Then again, the value of the Master's degree appears to be overstated in this data relative to what I've seen, which is actual survey data from the local marketplace for licensed professional engineers (i.e. with most of the dolts removed).

Forget the surveys and figure out what you're worth to your employer in dollars and cents. You're an engineer, so your true value shouldn't be too far from your fingertips or else you're not doing a very good job! Where we engineers fail is in demanding compensation for this value-added from our employers. Too many of us do quite the opposite- handing over enormous amounts of our time free of charge, in addition to the hours our paltry salaries command.

 

[whotmewory]

hi kchida:

Well, looks like your string has deviated quite a bit from your original question into a real debate about "other things."

I'd like to answer your original question about whether engineering is a "vaible field" or not.

I'm 47, engineers in college when I first attended used slide rules, and computers were on "Star Trek." I've served the fishing vessel building industry,material handling industry, and now the automated food packaging industry.

Engineering is only viable as a career/business - like any other business - as long as it rewards you with both self esteem and not just pays the bills - but buys the luxuries that you desire or investments you want.

Think of yourself as "Kchida, LLC" or "Kchida, Inc." You are a professional providing a service. When you show up for work, don't think of your employer as such - they are the customer that you won over when you interviewed: they liked you, and you are providing a service. To make them happy, do what it takes.

Now, our current economy is something the likes of which would scare the "bejesus" out of the WW2 generation: you and I do not work in an environment of "guaranteed" long term employment, retirement pensions, and a fat dumb and clueless suburban lifestyle.

You an I to survive must think in business terms and here's my answer to you about sticking with engineering: as soon as your own paycheck, cost of living, your own economic and industry research, etc. begin telling you that engineering is no longer a cost effective career field, then begin looking either for a new area to live that offers better lifestyle, or a new facet of engineering, or a different career altogether - including running your own business.

The idealism that someone earlier put out about the self-perceived rewards of designing a bigger better mouse trap [in condemning monied craeers] is a load of @^*(($@. The working world is full of jokers who hold themselves on a self-created pedestal - and are absolutely clueless to HOW THEIR COMPANY OR BOSS PERCEIVES THEM.

As for my own stupid mistakes - and they are many - at Temple University (Class of 89) when I returned to school, I scoffed big time at a new curriculum being offered in "Biomedical Engineering." I laughed at how "stupid" that was - don't recall why. Well, to this very day I am eating crow, for that very field is a big time mondo biggo money-maker.

Lastly - and then I'll shut up - may I suggest that BEFORE you toss mega bucks into a Masters Degree [when a coworker pitches that idea to you - and they will] think as any business professional would: validate the expense! Remember "Return on Investment?"

Think like a cold-hearted investor. Put your Engineering Economic Analysis to work and forget the "perceived prestige" sales pitch so many folks fall for. There are a lot of folks paying big time student loan bills for MS degrees that have had zero pay back.

In closing, I worked in the 90s with a drafter whose name was on drawings dating back to the mid sixties when I was a kid. The whole time I lived a life, put myself through school - twice - lived on two coasts, seven states, two nations, saw 28 countries, and SCUBA dived in seven seas, he expended his entire life's energy in one company, at the same level, doing the same damn job every freaking day.

He believed in working 40 years, saving, and then having some reward. Do you think he ever saw his dreams achieved? Well, he died one year after retiring. I've seen this happen too many times to be fooled into believing "hanging on" is valid.

Our time here is limited: Earth is like a vacation spot, and there IS a departure date. Our energy is our currency - we need to spend it wisely to enjoy our stay to the fullest extent possible while we can.

Chase your dreams and if it calls for leaving engineering, so be it. If it calls for being the best damn engineer in your field, more power to you.

Cheers from Chris in NC NASCAR COuntry!
Ex-homeless kid
Retired Military
Happy Engineer

 

[CarolinaPE]

Here is some more recent information from Abbott Langer and Associates:

Salaries in Mechanical Engineering
Compensation in Mechanical Engineering, 4th Edition - 2005
PUBLISHED: September 2005

Summary of the 572-page Compensation in Mechanical Engineering, 4th Edition - 2005 survey report from Abbott, Langer & Associates, Inc. The following describes the national median total cash compensation for 11 benchmark jobs.

The median annual income reported in a recent survey of the compensation of mechanical engineers was $88,000, with 10% making under $55,000 and 10% making over $139,731, according to Dr. Steven Langer, President of Abbott, Langer & Associates, Inc., Crete, IL. The composite highest-income practitioner in this field (salary plus cash bonus and/or cash profit sharing) is the President "B" (having little or no financial interest in an organization) with a median income of $160,000. Far toward the other end of the income spectrum, Junior Engineers have a median annual income of $52,000.

The middle-50% total cash compensation of some of the 37 jobs included in the survey report are:

Chief Marketing & Sales Executives $112,500 - $259,875
Professors (11-12 month appointment) $115,000 - $166,500
Environmental Managers $95,617 - $142,000
Engineering Directors/Vice Presidents $93,000 - $201,680
Principal Consultants $95,385 - $133,500
Chief Operating Officers "B" $90,000 - $174,000
Senior Engineers $75,000 - $100,000
Sales Representatives $59,250 - $128,500
Assistant Professors (9-10 month appointment) $63,000 - $84,000
Intermediate Researchers $56,000 - $81,000
Project Engineers $57,000 - $75,000

The highest median incomes by city are found in West Jersey (NJ), Anchorage, San Jose, Gainesville, the Virginia suburbs of Washington (DC), and the San Fernando Valley (all between $110,000 and $105,500). The lowest median annual incomes are found in Little Rock, San Juan (PR), Modesto/Stockton/Fresno, Lima/Findley (OH), Des Moines, and Honolulu (all between $58,000 and $70,000).

Compensation varies considerably from one type of employer to another. Median incomes are highest in hospitality organizations ($120,500), financial organizations ($119,811), in petroleum/coal/natural gas extraction and refining firms ($113,300), and for independent consultants ($100,000); and lowest in merchandising firms ($65,000), firms manufacturing heating/air conditioning/refrigeration products ($69,000), printing firms ($70,000), and firms manufacturing wood and wood products ($72,000).

By principal engineering specialty, the highest median incomes are found in information storage and processing systems ($127,000), petroleum ($120,000), management ($110,000), and nuclear engineering ($105,000). The lowest are found in solid waste processing ($75,000), manufacturing engineering ($76,000), design engineering ($77,432), nanotechnology ($80,250), and teaching/training ($82,000).

When level of education is taken into account, mechanical engineers with a doctoral degree earn a median annual income of $103,000, 29% higher than those who attended college but did not receive a bachelor's degree ($80,000).

Mechanical engineers with under one year of total engineering experience have a median income of $50,250, under one-half (47%) that of the 25-plus-year veteran ($107,000).

Those mechanical engineers with no supervisory responsibility have a median income of $78,000. For those supervising 250 or more professional & sub-professional employees, it is $167,000.

 

[PZas]

On that note I would say that engineering is a very viable career.

In fact those numbers seem downright pleasant.

 

[makeup]

If you can get those positions, I would agree

 

[GregLocock]

Presumably you won't get those jobs if you are obviously incompetent, insufficiently experienced, or unwilling to move to the required location.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[whotmewory]

Y'know, I've noticed where the incomes are highest, so too are the local taxes, costs of living and I imagine most of these are in metropolitan areas. It's all relative. I make less than $70k, but my local area cost of living is a joke compared to many places.

I'm sure a lot of us know of folks earning over $80-$100k and can't save a penny, have no savings, and seem to live paycheck to paycheck.

Cheers!

 

[CarolinaPE]

Not so fast my friend! I would not be so quick to think that "it is all relative" when it comes to cost of living to what you bring home in terms of a paycheck. While pay does vary from place to place, and cost of living does as well, they do not necessarily go hand in hand. Some places you really have to want to live there. See this link:

http://www.salary.com/advice/layoutscripts/advl_display.asp?tab=adv&cat=nocat&ser=Ser359&part=Par531

A few years ago I moved from a city scoring in the "teens" to one in the low hundreds on this survey. Paychecks were not much different but cost of living sure was! Ouch it was painful!!! Overall I am not a fan of the online calculators and such but can tell from experience not everything is relative, one place to the next. I am not saying you do not have a good deal where you are but just the old adage that "the big city pays more but it costs more to live there" may not always be the case, at least not a true apples to apples.

 

[whotmewory]

I don't know, Newfella,

Well, at least I do know from experience Philly and Seattle both drain every penny from a good wage. Now I'm in semi-rural Dixie where the counties I haunt are old tobacco counties and are now up and coming viticultural regions.

But yeah, some places - Houston I hear - and San Antonio - and Phoenix are s'posed to be okay.

 

[CarolinaPE]

So you are saying that you live where the cost of living is lower, your wage may be lower than the big city but the quality of life is better? I think that makes my point, the quality of life (and buying power) in your new location is an improvement over the old. Otherwise the debate we be that your quality of life and "money leftover" at the end of the month would be no different than the big cities where you once lived as compared to now. My point is that the "deal" each locale presents is not the apples to apples comparison that we all assumed. The link I submitted supports that.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

"I would say that most people who got out of highschool when I did (1998) had money somewhat in mind when they chose engineering. "

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! I must laugh. "money in mind when they chose engineering" oh, I must sit down for a gut I will bust...

Did you ever think about how hard you had to work in college to all that money? hahahahahahahaha! Dude: lawyer = money, banker = money, moviestar = money, salesman = money.

Doctors, who have to work - an school, arguably 100% harder, than engineers, make twice what engineers make, though, again, the academic and career commitment is substantially higher.


"Chief Marketing & Sales Executives $112,500 - $259,875"
Professors (11-12 month appointment) $115,000 - $166,500
Environmental Managers $95,617 - $142,000
Engineering Directors/Vice Presidents $93,000 - $201,680
Principal Consultants $95,385 - $133,500
Chief Operating Officers "B" $90,000 - $174,000
Senior Engineers $75,000 - $100,000
Sales Representatives $59,250 - $128,500
Assistant Professors (9-10 month appointment) $63,000 - $84,000
Intermediate Researchers $56,000 - $81,000
Project Engineers $57,000 - $75,000 "

Who amongst them actually does the work? I figure the professors/researchers and senior engineers actually do some engineering. The rest are either project/resource managers or salespeople.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

BTW, I chose enigneering because I liked to design and build things. I also wanted a title. "Engineer" is a nice title. I don't like people enough to be a doctor, and I don't dislke them enough to be a lawyer. I also make enough - as an engineer - where I can save for a rainy day or several rainy years.

 

[whotmewory]

Actually I chose engineering AFTER being exposed to technology.

I was a Marine Biology major in the late seventies. It turned out not to be the career path I thought I wanted.

Anyway, at that time (1977-79) on the inside covers of match books (real matches, man) were these ads to: "Get Your Engineering Degree at Night!" It was a real laugh and I choked when thinking about engineering as a career - advertising in match books because the field was so desperate!

But then in the Navy I got steam turbine shool, and hydraulic equipment repair schools and all this neat technical experience and exposure to VERY expensive equipment and systems.

Then as an Air force Reserve jet technician during [my second time] in college (yes, engineering this time), I got jet engine schools which made Thermodynamics class a real breeze.

I guess it takes some getting used to.

Spito, Spitero, huchtooey Splateus!

 

[sauba]

Looks like the shortage of engineers we were lead to believe existed is actually quite a surplus (as all of us who have graduated college in the last few years know very well).

http://www.redherring.com/Article.a...counted&sector=Industries&subsector=Computing

billgl, I too chose Engineering in part because of high salaries when I left high school (1999), so don't feel too stupid. Most salary reports showed Engineers doing quite well relative to just about any 4 year degree.

 

[GregLocock]

I'd be slightly more likely to take that article seriously if they explicitly stated they were talking about real engineers, not the vast majority of ITers. (I know it is possible to be a software engineer in the true sense of engineer, but there aren't many).



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.