EV vehicles - solutions or junk ? 5

[rQuestionEngineering]

Do you think EV vehicles is the solution to pollution considering all cordless products battery failed in two years.

 

[BrianPetersen]

So what if the government taxes energy and then with the extra money rebate some of it back to poor people so that they have a net effect of zero?

That is how the federal carbon tax in Canada works.

https://www.canada.ca/en/environmen...l-work/putting-price-on-carbon-pollution.html

In practice, most people see a net rebate, and a minority of people who are disproportionate high energy consumers pay more. Everyone is free to make choices so as to pay less tax (e.g. drive less, or drive more economically) and they'll still get the rebate; everyone is likewise free to consume more and pay more. And, in my opinion, that is how it should be. And ... it is politically unpopular, because people in general just see it as a tax and don't pay attention to the rebate that gets direct-deposited into their bank account four times per year. Conservative politicians in particular hype up the taxation aspect of this (of course disregarding the rebates as well), and in the next federal election they are expected to be campaigning on scrapping the scheme.

 

[enginesrus]

If done correctly a non ICE powered car would be a very good thing. Using inefficient motors and huge hazardous battery packs is not how to do it.

 

[BrianPetersen]

On what planet is an electric motor "inefficient"?

 

[Comcokid]

On what planet is an electric motor "inefficient"?

You have to consider the entire system and not a single item. And then there is the reality. This article is only a week old.
Largest EV Charging Station In World Powered By Diesel-Powered Generators

 

[BrianPetersen]

I've been seeing that going around. It all seems to be coming from one single source. I have not found anything to independently back up what it says in its headline which does not somehow lead back to that same source.

What's really happening is one of two things, one highly likely, the other improbable based on its location. The most likely real situation is that the charging station is grid-connected and has diesel generators for back-up. A variation is that it's grid-connected but without enough capacity to feed ALL the charging stations if they were all simultaneously in use, and uses the diesel generators for supporting peak usage from time to time. The other possibility, which is unlikely given this station's location in California very close to Interstate 5 and not all that far from population centres (but may be possible in someplace such as the Australian outback) is that this location is remote and exists to allow EV drivers to get through a charging-station void.

A good many larger charging stations have diesel back-up power. That addresses the common naysayer "What happens in a power outage" argument, does it not?

Answer this question: On a nationwide average, what percentage of the power used to recharge EVs comes from reciprocating-engine power (whether backup power or, as this article claims, main power supply to a charging station)?

I can tell you what percentage of power to recharge my own EV has come from reciprocating-engine power throughout its entire lifetime. None. It has all been from Ontario Power Generation grid power, either from being plugged in at home (~95%) or from DC fast-charging stations fed from grid power. And, here's where that comes from:

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-a...cial-territorial-energy-profiles-ontario.html

(Scroll down to "Electricity" about a third of the way down the page)

 

[BrianPetersen]

I did some more digging given that a few days have passed since originally seeing that article. And, here's what's really going on.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...s-powered-by-diesel-generators-really.310833/

"It was just a temporary generator that was used for three months while testing the battery swap tech. It started in March of 2015 and was over by June 2015."

 

[Brian Malone]

I think the Cowboy State Daily headline (story linked by Comcokid) is misleading for sensationalism. The originally SFGate story in the link in the CSD story (from 9/3/2023) indicates the Harris Ranch Supercharger station is grid connected and it is not exclusively powered by diesel generators. The gen set probably only runs when the Supercharger station has exceeded grid capacity. Which does show the irony of Tesla Corp. trying to polish their green image : some Tesla drivers purposefully drive to Harris Ranch as a pilgrimage to the world's largest Supercharger station and by driving there just to see the installation they create an electrical demand that exceeds the grid capacity and necessitates the use of local diesel generators.

 

[Brian Malone]

BrianPetersen good info in the Tesla club forum. Headlines are often written to grab attention - sometimes at the expense of total truth.

The OP's title of this thread is purposefully leading: asking if EVs are a solution (to what problem?) or junk will not have a yes/no answer.

Obviously an EV will work well for many use cases but be inappropriate/inadequate for others.

 

[TugboatEng]

We might be building an electric tugboat. The current plan is 6MW of charging rate on a 200 amp 480v service shared by the rest of the facility. Maybe they can make up the difference with solar.

 

[Brian Malone]

TugboatEng this will be an all-electric boat with no ICE backup? Is the design goal it will be able to work a full day with no charging?

 

[TugboatEng]

No ICE backup. The performance goal isn't exactly clear. It needs to be at least 5000 horsepower. Here is a similar project that is near completion.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.co...is-getting-nations-first-all-electric-tugboat

From my observations I believe 6MWh is the minimum battery capacity to dock a single ship. While the job may typically take 1MWh, there needs to be some cushion for when things don't go right (ILWU) and there is also transit time. During bad weather our boats have had to push full for up to 17 hours. On that day the engine room got so hot some of the portable CO2 fire extinguishers relieved themselves. That day would have required more than 60MWh of power. Presently the boats in my fleet hold between 8000 and 70000 gallons of diesel. We refuel 8000 gallon boats semi-weekly.

 

[IRstuff]

https://slate.com/technology/2022/05/elon-musk-tesla-twitter-fables.html[/URL]]Instead, the company was running diesel generators to power additional Superchargers (the kind that take 30 to 60 minutes to recharge a battery) to handle the holiday rush, their exhaust mingling with the unmistakable smell of bullshit.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[BrianPetersen]

See post in this thread of 7 Oct 23 14:45. Same original source as of the previously-linked BS/clickbait article, same counterpoints apply.

 

[gruntguru]

I disagree with this statement. I feel that the technology was mostly mature when Toyota brought the Prius to the market. Nobody has done anything remarkable with the technology of EV since. Maybe Tesla weaseled enough subsidy from governments so they can install a larger battery pack without increasing price.

Even today - (26 years since Prius emerged) the technology is nowhere near mature (I'm talking about batteries of course).

As to Tesla finances, they ran massive losses for several years. Now each car sold includes a fat margin and they are selling like hot-cakes. If and when big auto catches up, prices will plummet.

je suis charlie

 

[gruntguru]

You have to consider the entire system and not a single item. And then there is the reality. This article is only a week old. Largest EV Charging Station In World Powered By Diesel-Powered Generators

. . . a great example of considering a "single item" within the entire system.

je suis charlie

 

[Brian Malone]

TugboatEng with 6 MWh capacity and a 1 MWh demand to complete docking a ship, do you see the all-elecric tug would dock a ship then transit back to dock for a standby charge or it will stay out on station and monitor its power level to determine if it can maneuver another ship? Once a tug is engaged in moving a ship it should not suddenly break away for getting a battery boost, right? The capability of EVs generally is never questionable, more the readiness status and demand matching is difficult. That is part of the transition to an EV-based society that I think gets ignored or down played by the environment protection/green proponents.