Expired License 11

[JKW05]

I am the EOR for a project in which we utilized a fiberglass floor system. As a somewhat proprietary system, I required calculations and drawings for this system to be submitted that were signed and sealed by a registered PE. When I received the submission, I discovered that the PE's license expired 8 years ago. We subsequently recieved drawings signed and sealed by another engineer (currently registered) in addition to the previous seal.

I am preparing to file a complaint with our state licensing board, but my boss has indicated that he thought I should I should just let the matter drop, since we did receive drawings sealed by a currently registered PE.

What are your thoughts?

 

[JKW05]

plasgears

I don't know where you are "signing" your communications from, but in Pennsylvania you don't have to "seal" a drawing to be violating the state law.

1) It is unlawful to practice engineering unless he is licensed and registered as a professional engeineer.
2) A person shall be construed to practice engineering if they verbally claim, sign, advertise, or in any other way represents himself to be an engineer.

This is from the Pennsylvania Engineer, Land Surveyor and Geologist Registration Law. I would bet that whatever state you are in has similar language.

So I'm not sure what the intent of your post is. Is it to show everyone that you are above the law? Or is it to show everyone that you are getting away with breaking it?

 

[greenone]

CA too has a similar requirement, JKW05. Use of PE after my name would be a violation, as I never registered here, even though I keep my NY registration current.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I think almost every state has about the same rule using the term "PE" and I am registered in about 42 states.

If I ever HAVE to sign a letter using PE after my name and I am NOT registered in that state - then I add something like "Registered in STATE"

Some industrial customers care less that you are registered in their state - just that you are registered somewhere. Federal OSHA seems to be this way in many areas....CAL-OSHA is another story.

 

[sms]

Me too, I sign my name Steven M. Schultheis, PE (Texas)
so there is no confusion as to where I am registered.



"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

 

[IRstuff]

California:

It is unlawful for anyone other than a professional engineer licensed under this chapter to stamp or seal any plans, specifications, plats, reports, or other documents with the seal or stamp of a professional engineer, or in any manner, use the title “professional ngineer,” “licensed engineer,” “registered engineer,” or “consulting engineer,” or any of the following branch titles: “agricultural engineer,” “chemical engineer,” “civil engineer,” “control system engineer,” “electrical engineer,” “fire protection engineer,” “industrial engineer,” “mechanical engineer,” “metallurgical engineer,” “nuclear engineer,” “petroleum engineer,” or “traffic engineer,” or any combination of these words and phrases or abbreviations thereof unless licensed under this chapter.

Also

It is unlawful for anyone to stamp or seal any plans, specifications, plats, reports, or other documents with the seal after the certificate of the registrant, named thereon, has expired or has been suspended or revoked, unless the certificate has been renewed or reissued.

The industrial exemption allows non-licensed engineers to do work for their companies that would otherwise require a license. It's unclear from the PE act what those engineers, like me, are allowed to use on our business cards.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[JKW05]

It is unlawful for anyone other than a professional engineer licensed under this chapter to stamp or seal any plans, specifications, plats, reports, or other documents with the seal or stamp of a professional engineer, or in any manner, use the title “professional ngineer,” “licensed engineer,” “registered engineer,” or “consulting engineer,” or any of the following branch titles: “agricultural engineer,” “chemical engineer,” “civil engineer,” “control system engineer,” “electrical engineer,” “fire protection engineer,” “industrial engineer,” “mechanical engineer,” “metallurgical engineer,” “nuclear engineer,” “petroleum engineer,” or “traffic engineer,” or any combination of these words and phrases or abbreviations thereof unless licensed under this chapter

What isn't clear?

 

[Eleceng01]

JKW05,

Sorry you confused me. If I understand you correctly, you are saying no one can put "electrical engineer" on their business card unless they are a PE?

Kentucky law state:

322.020 Practice of engineering or land surveying without license prohibited.
(1) Unless licensed as a professional engineer, no person shall:
(a) Engage in the practice of engineering;
(b) Offer to practice engineering; or
(c) Use, assume, or advertise in any way any title or description tending to convey the impression that he or she is a professional engineer.
(2) Unless licensed as a professional land surveyor, no person shall:
(a) Engage in the practice of land surveying;
(b) Offer to practice land surveying; or
(c) Use, assume, or advertise in any way any title or description tending to convey
the impression that he or she is a professional land surveyor.

I am not sure stating that you are an "electrical engineer" meets this restriction, but then I haven't been a PE for very long either. Thanks in advance for the feedback.

 

[JKW05]

I have heard varying opinions on who can ethically advertise themselves as an "engineer" And I wouldn't claim to be the "title" police. I certainly don't find fault with train operators referring to themselves as "engineers". However, what is clear to me is that unless one is licensed by the state, they can't legally advertise themselves as a professional engineer, regardless of the field. Use of "PE" indicates one is an engineer recognized to have met the professional standards of, and currently licensed in that state.

 

[IRstuff]

That wasn't the issue.

(a) This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining, public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or services of that corporation or its affiliates.
(b) For purposes of this section, “employees” also includes consultants, temporary employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.

Since industry employees are legally exemption from needing to be licensed to do the work, why wouldn't they likewise be legally exempt from needing a license to call themselves "electrical engineers?"

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[JKW05]

Irstuff,

Thank you for your input. My primary objection has been to those who insist on referring to themselves as PE, when they are in fact not registered professional engineers with the state. Your previous post did not present the exception you have now cited, and I am not aware of any such exception in Pennsylvania.

But that exception is consistent with the differing opinions that I have heard: Within an organization one can call themselves whatever they want. Outside of the organization, one cannot. IMHO, the exception you cite appears to permit one to list himself as an "electrical engineer" (in CA), as long as it was for that corporation. However in Pennsylvania, unless someone can cite a similar exception, the registration law specifically says one cannot do that.

This is paraphrased, but it expresses the PA act:

"A person shall be construed to practice or to offer to practice engineering . . . who, by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card, or any other way represents himself to be an engineer, . . . or through the use of some other title implies that he is an engineer."

IMHO, Pennsylvania law prohibits the title of "Electrical Engineer" to be used, unless one is registered engineer.

Please understand, I am not suggesting that non-registered designers, technicians, engineers, or whatever they may be titled as, are not competent. I certainly know many non-registered individuals who are, in many respects, more knowledgeable and competent than I am. And I know many PE's who, let's say, aren't so much.... But I guess the question may be: what is one's intent in using the term "engineer" in lieu of "technician" or "designer". Is it to deceive the recipient into believing that one is a registered PE?

If I treat a cut hand by spraying some Bactine on it and wrapping it in a bandaid, is it appropriate for me to advertise myself as a "nurse" or "physician". I'm pretty sure I would by facing legal problems if I added "R.N." or "M.D." after my name. Why should the engineering profession not be held to a comparable level of respect?

 

[civilperson]

Exempt from license requirements in industrial positions does NOT allow anyone to call themselves "electrical engineers" without a Professional License in the States. I must designate what state I am licensed in when saying I am a PE in another state where I do not hold a license. Thus my business card says PE licensed in Nevada and Nebraska. (Pretty much worthless in the other 48 States.)

 

[EddyC]

New York State allows anyone to refer to themselves as an Engineer. New Jersey is similar to what JKW05 described for Pennsylvania.

 

[civilperson]

I disagree with EddyC: NY State Law Article 145 Statute 7208.K, One may use the title of engineer within a company, but may not advertise to the public that one is a engineer without licensure.

 

[zelgar]

For those States that do not allow anyone to call themselves an X "engineer", how do unlicenced engineers get their "engineering" experience to become a P.E.? I'm pretty certain that Indiana required you to be working as an "engineer" for the 4 yrs in order to take the P.E. exam.

 

[Eleceng01]

zelgar,

Is this the reason for "Engineer-in-Training?" This is an interesting topic and I will have to check with my local state board, but it does raise questions about people I know.

 

[IRstuff]

In California, you would take the EIT test and put EIT in your business card. However, you can work for an exempted company and get your experience from someone within that company who does have a PE, and then work for your PE.

Our company fall in the exemption and out of about 200 engineers, only maybe 6 are PEs, and most are probably lapsed.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[JKW05]

In PA, an individual must gain engineering experience under the supervision of a PE as an "Engineer-in-Training". He promotes himself as an EIT, and not as a P.E., or an engineer at all. The title exactly states his professional position, and the use of that title is permitted by the state act. As an EIT, that individual is not practicing engineering, his supervisor is. The EIT certification requires certain educational achievements, as well as passing a written exam. As far as I know, this process is pretty much uniform throughout the U.S. courtesy of the NCEES.

 

[zelgar]

In a way I think this is funny. Until I got my P.E., I considered myself an engineer, since that was my position and my college degree.

Since I received my P.E., the only change was to include the P.E. after my name on my business card. I work for the State of Indiana, and most of the other engineers I work with don't have their P.E.'s.

I think most engineers (with and without their P.E.) would agree that if you don't see the P.E. after a name, you would expect that they worked as an engineer, but were not professionally licenced. If they do have "PE" or "P.E." after their name, would believe that person was professionally licenced.

 

[Eleceng01]

zelgar, I believed the same as you until I got my PE as well. Then reading this made me wonder if I had been in violation of state laws for years by having "electrical engineer" on my business cards. I love this sight for what you can learn here.

 

[plasgears]

JKW05,

Heretofore I will sign "..., PE ret"

The connotation of this is past registration, and implied competence by degree and passing the license exam. I am not trying to violate any laws. I am merely conveying the sense of competence.