Expired License 11

[JKW05]

I am the EOR for a project in which we utilized a fiberglass floor system. As a somewhat proprietary system, I required calculations and drawings for this system to be submitted that were signed and sealed by a registered PE. When I received the submission, I discovered that the PE's license expired 8 years ago. We subsequently recieved drawings signed and sealed by another engineer (currently registered) in addition to the previous seal.

I am preparing to file a complaint with our state licensing board, but my boss has indicated that he thought I should I should just let the matter drop, since we did receive drawings sealed by a currently registered PE.

What are your thoughts?

 

[EddyC]

This engineer title issue is problematic. The folks who aren't licensed are always asked in social situations: "What do you do?" If we go by the letter of the state law, the answer would be: "I do engineering, but I am not an engineer unless I'm within my office." You can imaging the confused reactions of the general public to such an answer. It doesn't affect me, since I am a PE.

 

[melone]

Could the confusion stem from such a pretentious response?

 

[vc66]

Let me start my response off by saying that I'm not a PE.

I am an engineer. 40+ hours of the week, I take engineering principles, and make them usable for my company by virtue of creating products. I would NEVER tell anyone I had my PE.

I feel that if you are misrepresenting yourself as a PE, then there is a problem, because people's safety may be at stake. However, people who think of being a PE as a status symbol, alone, is a different story. If anyone is going to tell me that I'm not an engineer, just because I'm not a PE, then they can stick their PE certificate where the sun don't shine.

I'm sick of this holier than thou crap.

That being said, I'm taking my PE test as soon as I'm able.

V

 

[MiketheEngineer]

How about this...

There are a couple of popular engineering magazines around. In them - there are articles addressing engineering issues that are answered by the author who has either a PE or PLS after his/her name. The magazines are circulated at least around the US - probably further.

Is he/she violating the law?

What about the US syndicated doctor in the daily newspaper who answers medical questions. Is he practicing out of his jurisdiction??

Seems the real problems arise ONLY when something goes WRONG!!

 

[theCorkster]

I thought I'd run into a similar discussion about passing out business cards in states other than you are licensed in. The thrust of registration is to attempt to make sure that engineering work is performed under the direction of "competent" engineers (as determined by the state's licensing board) and protect the public trust. However, it is clear that states do not want people to represent themselves as an engineer unless they are licensed in their state, the presumption being that engineering business will be done. My business card does not identify the states in I'm licensed in - so, I believe in some states I cannot pass out my business card, since it can be construed as misrepresenting myself in that state.

While national registration would effectively resolve this issue, it would diminsh states rights---so, when you travel, be careful who you pass your business card to! You could be violating the state's law!

 

[IRstuff]

So long as the articles are officially written in the state from whence they're licensed. This scenario is covered under reciprocity.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[DonPhillips]

For the instance of a business card, the address implies which state the person is licensed in. Similarly, most articles I read give the author's location.

Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[Encap505]

You did not mention whether this project involved a public entity but I sense that you're actually talking about a private project. If so you have no case plus there are other problems with your analysis of the situation.

First of all there is no legal requirement in any state in the United States dictating that a PE stamp be used on any NON-PUBLIC projects; therefore, the fact that this person's license expired 8 years earlier is a moot point!

Also, you don't need a proprietary system to have it's calculations and drawings signed off by a registered PE anymore than you need a non-proprietary system to be signed off (it's not an issue)

Keep in mind that the fact that a set of drawings are signed off on by a PE doesn't protect you legally if your firm did shoddy work of if there is some kind of accident - a PE stamp should not be mistaken as a legal "engineering shield."

To be perfectly blunt, a PE stamp is really just "window dressing" when you really think about it. Only a very small percentage of the enigneers ever employed in this country (or anywhere else) actually possess a PE stamp. The vast majority of engineering work done in this country is in fact not done by "Professional Engineers." If a PE stamp was required everytime construction plans were issued, this country would come to a screeching halt. No new hotels, no new refineries, no new sport stadiums, etc.

FYI: The vast majority of PE licenses are held by public servant Civil Engineers who work for the city , state, and federal highway departments. (The fact is they could contract out to private firms with few or no PEs and the quality would be just as good and everything would probably be cheaper too)

Also there's an applicable analogy here - many people are also hoodwinked by the physician term -"Board Certified." I saw a case recently where someone famous expired and the media blamed it on the fact that the doctor was not certifed as such. Outrageous. This is a total "non-sequitor." The average doctor in this country possesses a 4 year Bachelor's degree, an additional 4 year medical degree and many years of extensive training - Board Certification is just a cherry on top of an already loaded sundae- and ; just like engineers, the vast majority of doctors in the WORLD are not board certifed in anything.

Finally, yes it's true that you can't put "Professional Engineer" on your business card, stationary, etc. if you don't have a PE license but I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for putting Mechanical Engineer on their card or referring to themselves as such. I am a Mechancial Engineer and have a hard earned degree to back it up.

 

[HgTX]

"FYI: The vast majority of PE licenses are held by public servant Civil Engineers who work for the city , state, and federal highway departments. (The fact is they could contract out to private firms with few or no PEs and the quality would be just as good and everything would probably be cheaper too)"

You are imagining that when government agencies outsource their civil engineering work they don't require the people doing that work to be similarly licensed? The rules governing P.E. licensure for civil structures have to do with the type of work being done, not who the engineer in question works for.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[JKW05]

Responses to Encap's post:

You did not mention whether this project involved a public entity but I sense that you're actually talking about a private project.

In fact, this is a public project, paid for with public funds.

First of all there is no legal requirement in any state in the United States dictating that a PE stamp be used on any NON-PUBLIC projects;

I'm not sure what you categorize as "non-public" projects, and I can't speak to what is required in your state, but in Pennsylvania, every commercial building construction project must have a building permit along with construction documents. The UCC was adopted in PA by law. Section 403.42a(b) of the Pennsylvania Uniform Construction Code states:

"A licensed architect or licensed professional engineer shall prepare the construction documents under the Architects Licensure Law or the Engineer, Land Surveyor and Geologist Registration Law. An unlicensed person may prepare design documents for the remodeling or alteration of a building if there is no compensation and the remodeling does not relate to additions to the building or changes to the building's structure."

I have not seen a building code official accept an unsealed set of documents since PA adopted the UCC.

therefore, the fact that this person's license expired 8 years earlier is a moot point!

Anyone who claims to be a registered PE in Pennsylvania without a current registration is in violation of PA state law….period. Please read the countless posts above.

Also, you don't need a proprietary system to have it's calculations and drawings signed off by a registered PE anymore than you need a non-proprietary system to be signed off (it's not an issue)

In this case, the Contract documents very specifically required this system be designed under the supervision of a legally registered professional engineer, signed and sealed. In your opinion, perhaps I didn't "need" to do this. But I chose to include this requirement; therefore it was contractually required to be provided. And representing himself to be a licensed engineer is an issue, regardless of whether it was required or not. Anyone who claims to be a registered PE in Pennsylvania without a current registration is in violation of PA state law….period

To be perfectly blunt, a PE stamp is really just "window dressing" when you really think about it.

I think the respect you have for the profession is pretty clear here.

Only a very small percentage of the engineers ever employed in this country (or anywhere else) actually possess a PE stamp.

Without a doubt, there are countless, competent, non-registered individuals performing engineering design work throughout the world. However, to be done legally in PA, it must be done under the supervision of a registered professional.

If a PE stamp was required everytime construction plans were issued, this country would come to a screeching halt. No new hotels, no new refineries, no new sport stadiums, etc.

Based on some earlier remarks about "industrial exceptions", I can't speak to the refineries. But I would be interested if you could cite any documentation about any specific sports stadiums or hotels within the U.S. that you believe haven't been designed under the supervision of registered professionals.

FYI: The vast majority of PE licenses are held by public servant Civil Engineers who work for the city , state, and federal highway departments. (The fact is they could contract out to private firms with few or no PEs and the quality would be just as good and everything would probably be cheaper too)

Another impressive statement of fact; I would be interested if you can reference any published statistical data that supports your "facts" rather then presenting your opinions as fact.

Finally, yes it's true that you can't put "Professional Engineer" on your business card, stationary, etc.

Obviously one can; The drawings I received were sealed! The question is, will the state registration board enforce the state law?

I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for putting Mechanical Engineer on their card or referring to themselves as such.

I agree. But in PA, as well as other states noted from other's posts, the state laws says otherwise. So it's still just a matter of enforcement.

As I said before, my objection isn't really with the use of the title of "engineer". It is with unlicensed individuals representing themselves to be PE's. The whole topic of the "title" came up in ElecEng's post on 2/20. My response was simply to cite what is written as the state law. If that is being "holier than though", than so be it.

 

[Eleceng01]

JKW05 - I wasn't trying to complicate the discussion, but I must have. I was just sharing KY law and I agree with your comments above.

I can speak about refinery work though and we (a consulting firm)do have some work in the refineries that they (the refinery) require that our work be stamped by a PE. Much of our work doesn't require it though.

 

[debodine]

I suggest using the title "PooBah," as in Electrical PooBah, Civil PooBah, Structural PooBah, etc. Then, there will be ABSOLUTELY no confusion about who's a Professional PooBah.

My son-in-law" refers to my granddaughter as "little bit" since she is small. Perhaps for Engineer-in-Training you could use "PooBit"?

 

[debodine]

I meant to give credit for the first line in my post above, but forgot. That quote from IRStuff about using "Poobah" was great, and I was just trying to capitalize on that humorous vein. But I had intended to give credit and hit "Submit Post" too soon.

 

[IRstuff]

Not a problem. Being a Grand Aerospace Poobah, I have risen above petty thoughts, as befits my exalted rank ;-)

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[debodine]

I aspire to your exalted heights of power and wisdom, oh IRstuff the GAP (Grand Exalted Poobah), but as long as you are the reigning GAP, there can be no other.

May I serve as Undersecretary Deputy Assistant Executive Vice GAP until you end your munificent reign, oh great leader?

)

debodine

 

[debodine]

Still can't type properly...that's GAP (Grand Aerospace Poobah). I think your dazzling crown blinded my eyes...

 

[ptmoss]

Of course, if you're not licensed, there's nothing a State Engineering Board can actually do to you other than write a letter or two.

Beyond that they'd probably have to refer the matter to the AG office and unless it's incredibly egregious then I suspect they'll not be spending much time chasing and prosecuting.

I sort of remember one case in NH about 20 years ago where a couple developers essentially lifted the seal of an engineer (forgive my lack of specifics - CRS), and prepared plans for several projects sealing with that engineers stamp (who had absolutely no knowledge of this). This one did get prosecuted when it was finally brought to light. Don't remember what the penalties were, though.

 

[DonPhillips]

This is the penalty in Ohio:

4733.99 Penalty
(A) Whoever violates section 4733.22 of the Revised Code shall be fined not less than one hundred nor more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not more than ninety days, or both.

Chapter 4733.22 Prohibitions
No person shall practice, or offer to practice, the profession of engineering or the profession of surveying without being registered or exempted in accordance with this chapter, or present or attempt to use as the person's own the registration, the certificate of authorization, or the seal of another, or give any false or forged evidence of any kind to the state board of registration for professional engineers and surveyors or to any member thereof in obtaining registration or a certificate of authorization, or falsely impersonate any other registrant or holder of a certificate of authorization of like or different name, or attempt to use an expired, suspended, or revoked registration or certificate of authorization, or otherwise violate this chapter.



Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[ptmoss]

Oh, I don't doubt there's a penalty in NH as well. But it still has to be prosecuted and the attorneys at the AGs office have far bigger fish to fry. In other words, not enough manpower to prosecute everything that they'd like to.

 

[civilperson]

Without a current PE registration, no unpaid invoices for engineering can be collected in a civil court. Most boards will fine and send a cease and desist letter at the first incident of unregistered practice, I know Nevada will prosecute at subsequent violations or non payment of fines.