Expired License 11

[JKW05]

I am the EOR for a project in which we utilized a fiberglass floor system. As a somewhat proprietary system, I required calculations and drawings for this system to be submitted that were signed and sealed by a registered PE. When I received the submission, I discovered that the PE's license expired 8 years ago. We subsequently recieved drawings signed and sealed by another engineer (currently registered) in addition to the previous seal.

I am preparing to file a complaint with our state licensing board, but my boss has indicated that he thought I should I should just let the matter drop, since we did receive drawings sealed by a currently registered PE.

What are your thoughts?

 

[IRstuff]

I think that would be a bad idea, depending on the state board in question. You either are licensed or not. There's no in-between in the law.

In particular, you're using the ONE title that would be most like to get you into trouble, "PE" stands for "Profession Engineer" which requires a current license, see my excerpt from the California PE Act.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[DonPhillips]

I heard somewhere that some states allow one to use retired, if you are not practicing. It may even be Ohio.


Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[BRGENG]

A while back there was an article about an Engineer being fined for using PE after his name in a State he was not licensed in. The main part of the Story was that he was a Licensed Professional Engineer in a State, he was the design engineer on a project in another State that his immediate supervisor signed and sealed (this happens all the time). An RFI came in from the contractor and he answered the RFI and used PE after his name (this also happens all the time). Fast forward and he is fined and hits the national magazine. The article explained that he was fined for practicing engineering without being licensed. If he had not used PE after his name he would not have been fined and could have answered the RFI.

Since the article did not list the States involved and since we do work in all 50 States it is now are policy that you do not use PE on anything unless you are registered in that State.

To make matters worse we are seeing where an Engineer from one of the Codes is being investigated giving Engineering related answers (clarifying their code) while not registered in the State where the answer came from. We also saw a State Board member tell a speaker at a conference that he could not give a seminar about the new Seismic provisions unless his company had a Certificate of authority and that he was licensed as a Professional Engineer in the State.

While I am all for State licensure and require professional to be licensed in a State to do work in that State the State Boards seem to have discovered a new way to fine engineers to generate money. It used to be odd to see someone punished by the State Board, now you are guaranteed to several people every newsletter. It seems like most are firms not having a CoA. We have over 100 engineers licensed in our home State yet the State Board still wants another $300 for the Company.

To get to the point, if you use PE after your name and are not licensed in that State you could easily fine yourself in front of the State board getting fined.

 

[melone]

So once you pass the PE test, how do you keep your licence valid?

 

[MiketheEngineer]

You keep your PE license valid by following the Rules and Regs of your state.

I have also seen some court testimony by "Expert Witness" PE's challenged becasue they were not licensed in that state.

The laws of Physics and Engineering know no state boundary -How about a National License....

Also - isn't all this licensing hassle really in violation of Free Trade as promised by the Federal govt.

 

[Eleceng01]

This discussion got me thinking and so I contacted my state board. Here is their response. They do not state that you are breaking any law, they just "do not like to see" it.

Following is the board guideline on this issue:

"Individuals who are engineering graduates may use terms such as BSCE (Bachelor of Science in Civil Engineering), "Graduate Engineer", or "Engineer in Training" (if applicable) in any advertisement, letterhead, business cards, etc."

KRS 322.020 says that someone not licensed cannot use a term that create the perception that they are licensed. Using "Electrical Engineer" would tend to do that since there is an electrical PE exam. Therefore, the board does not like to see that title used.

Titles listed in our guideline above could be adapted to an electrical engineer. One could even use "Graduate Electrical Engineer".

 

[IRstuff]

While they might not try to prosecute, California law says otherwise

It is unlawful for anyone other than a professional engineer ... use the title ... electrical engineer ... or any combination of these words and phrases or abbreviations thereof unless licensed under this chapter

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Eleceng01]

IMHO this should be a national standard and not left up to the states. "We" as engineers have done a poor job in protecting our title unlike doctors and architects and it ahs only hurt our salaries.

 

[EddyC]

Perhaps the first "persons" to be prosecuted for misusing the engineer title should be the universities. After all, the degrees they give out to their fresh graduates say that you are an engineer. Its seems that the only folks that get in trouble for this engineering title misuse are the "little guys/gals".

 

[DonPhillips]

I had posted this link in another thread:

http://www.licensingreform.org/

Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[IRstuff]

Universities have been in business way longer than PEs. If anyone should change, it should be the PEs, as they are fighting a losing battle with sanitation engineers, and sales engineers.

I suggest using the title "PooBah," as in Electrical PooBah, Civil PooBah, Structural PooBah, etc. Then, there will be ABSOLUTELY no confusion about who's a Professional PooBah.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Eleceng01]

Thanks for the laugh this morning IRstuff - a Aerospace PooBah I assume.

 

[monkeydog]

IRstuff,
I like your idea, but it should be PooEee, that way my company will not give me grief about changing my bussiness card to Monkeydog P.B.

 

[Gstoner]

You COULD just draw to small arcs on the 'E' to make it a 'B'

Doing that to 500 cards would need to be billed to something.....hmmmm

 

[JKW05]

Here are some of my thought on some previous posts:

I heard somewhere that some states allow one to use retired, if you are not practicing.

If one is not a "practicing engineer" or the document is not related to engineering, than what is the purpose of including the "PE"?

This discussion got me thinking and so I contacted my state board. Here is their response. They do not state that you are breaking any law, they just "do not like to see" it.

That may be Kentucky's policy, but it appears other states may have different views.

Perhaps the first "persons" to be prosecuted for misusing the engineer title should be the universities. After all, the degrees they give out to their fresh graduates say that you are an engineer

My diploma does not say I am an engineer. It says I successfully completed the curriculum required by the University I attended, in my particular field of engineering. However, my P.E. license does specifically say I am a Professional Engineer.

 

[IRstuff]

Actually, my business card says "Grand Aerospace Poobah," as befitting my long and distinguished service to the evil empire ;-)

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[EddyC]

IR stuff,

You work(ed) for the Soviets? You dirty commie!

 

[monkeydog]

Evil Empire?
You must work for Boing Company

 

[IRstuff]

Been there, done that.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[jetmaker]

Calling oneself an engineer when not licensed is not that "serious" of an offense, which is why most boards simply forward a letter frowning upon the use, and rarely enforce the action beyond the letter.

However, the use of PE or any derivative thereof when not licensed is a serious matter, as it gives the impression that one is licensed and able to offer their services to the public. If you are not a licensed engineer, then the use of PE is wrong and opens yourself up to prosecution.

As a register engineer in Canada (Ontario), yet working in the US, I do include the P.Eng designation after my name when the time calls for it (typically it only appears on my resume). Otherwise it does not get included.

As a final note, I think the trend in exempt industries is to refer to engineers as analysts. That is how job descriptions are posted around this company. I think this is done to avoid hassles with the Boards.

Regards,

jetmaker