F1 going hybrid

[Silverbullet86]

http://gas2.org/2008/04/22/formula-1-racing-to-go-hybrid-from-2009-2013/

i thought this was interesting. Who doesn't like higher performance of a system =)

The biggest difference between KERS and a regular battery-electric hybrid is that KERS stores recovered waste energy in a rotating flywheel

What would be wasted energy from a flywheel? I can only think of when the clutch is disengaged the flywheel slows down, but I believe F1 cars have automatic paddle shifting, and there wouldn't be any clutch in situations during a race. De acceleration while in gear perhaps?

 

[GregLocock]

No, they mean that the wasted energy is stored in a separate flywheel.

Another fantastic innovation brought to you by Formula 1.

If you ignore the 1950s Swiss gyrobus



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Silverbullet86]

wow, i shouldn't read things after midnight lol.

I wonder what would be considered wasted energy. I've never looked into hybrid cars.

 

[btrueblood]

I have visions of lots of new F1 cars, in their maiden race, hitting top speed thru the starting line, and then plowing, one after another in lemming-like fashion, into the barrier at the 1st turn ... because the gyro forces from the flywheel (now spinning at max rpm from regenerative braking energy) make it impossible to turn the car...

 

[globi5]

If you have two flywheels running in opposite directions, there are no gyro forces influencing the behavior of the vehicle.

Nevertheless, since approx. 40% of the energy is lost during braking (F1 scenario), there's definitely a benefit of a hybrid drive train (be it flywheels or ultracaps).

More efficient = less time needed to tank = faster.


Since the 80's recuperation of braking energy is prohibited in F1, so they will need to change the rules.

I guess they could also limit the fuel amount available per race (like they did in the turbo days) and allow teams to do more or less whatever they please. But then again, this might give one lucky team with the best system a significant advantage and produce boring races.

 

[2stroketech]

hey let's not turn F1 into NASCRAP. I am a firm believer that racing is all about the technology.

 

[SomptingGuy]

The article does say "A rotating flywheel", i.e. in the singular. Not sure which axis the Torotrak one turns around though. Unless the axis is vertical (unlikely) cornering will cause either a rolling or pitching torque to be applied. Of course the flywheel is going to be at maximum speed on corner entry too. Imagine seeing a car entering the bus stop chicane with its outside wheels in the air! Or doing a wheelie!

- Steve

 

[globi5]

My point was: It is not an issue that can't be overcome.

 

[GregLocock]

If you have two counterrotating flywheels, with vertical axes, and then spin one up against the other, you can turn the car without using the tires.

Interested?



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[btrueblood]

You and others are correct, globi5, I was being a bit flip.
(sorry, couldn't resist just one more pun)

 

[crysta1c1ear]

That is a very uninformed article about KERS.

> ... Max Mosely of F1 has announced that all cars will
> become hybrid by 2013, ...

KERS is planned for 2009 onwards. Although not compulsory, if you choose not to have it you will be at a disadvantage. Since we are talking about racing that effectively means the cars should all be hybrids in 2009.

> KERS doesn’t store as much energy as a traditional
> hybrid system, but it only weighs 55 pounds and the
> limited energy storage capacity is well suited
> for Formula-style racing.

The weight of a KERS is not regulated and so should vary from team to team.

It is not well suited to formula one racing. Weight is transferred to the front on braking and initially KERS will act on the rear only. The rear already has about 800 HP and until the engine runs out of power, ie cannot spin the wheels, a rear wheel KERS is effectively useless.

> The biggest difference between KERS and a regular
> battery-electric hybrid is that KERS stores recovered
> waste energy in a rotating flywheel.

Teams are free to choose the technology they want. For example it would be surprising if Toyota went for anything other than an electric motor KERS and not a flywheel.

The guy writing the article seems to have heard about one prospective KERS unit that is in development and not only assumed that it will reach the starting grid, but that all the cars will have it.

 

[globi5]

It is not well suited to formula one racing. Weight is transferred to the front on braking and initially KERS will act on the rear only. The rear already has about 800 HP and until the engine runs out of power, ie cannot spin the wheels, a rear wheel KERS is effectively useless.


You need to keep in mind that the total braking power at 300 km/h with a decelaration of 4g can easily be over 2000 HP.
Even if only 30% of that braking power is taken care of by the rear wheels, this can still be more power than the engine itself can deliver during acceleration.

During acceleration at higher speeds, the rear wheels can easily take more power (higher gear = less torque plus more downforce).


Besides: Every single HP and every pound of fuel saving (weight saving) makes the car faster.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Well,the FIA _claim_ to be reducing the cost of F!. KERS research isn't cheap.

- Steve

 

[murpia]

"You need to keep in mind that the total braking power at 300 km/h with a decelaration of 4g can easily be over 2000 HP.
Even if only 30% of that braking power is taken care of by the rear wheels, this can still be more power than the engine itself can deliver during acceleration."

Don't forget the FIA have capped the maximum power in and out of the KERS at 60kW. The torque produced by the rear brakes is proportional to downforce, and therefore is proportional to speed squared. However the 60kW limit means KERS input torque is capped _inversely_ proportional to speed.

Without a means of varying the hydraulic brake bias through the braking zone (which is outlawed) a KERS equipped car will waste some of it's braking potential, rendering it less competitive than it could have been.

Regards, Ian

 

[kevindurette]

I've often wondered whether the entire public highway transportation system could be redesigned for efficiency. As it is, we have traffic lights and intersections. It's impossible to run out to the grocery store without wasting your hard-earned energy by stopping for a timed light. Stop signs are just as bad; most of them (here in Florida at least) should be yield signs.

Since it would cost too much to redesign and rebuild all the roads to avoid intersections entirely, regenerative braking is the next best thing, and I hope F1 gains the consequential crossover value that it has so thoroughly lost recently.

If I was in a race team, I'd design the flywheel so it would resist the overturning moment of the weight transfer. Imagine the consequences in circle-track racing; a low CG would no longer be essential.

 

[globi5]

The torque produced by the rear brakes is proportional to downforce, and therefore is proportional to speed squared. However the 60kW limit means KERS input torque is capped _inversely_ proportional to speed.

Make KERS only operational above 120 km/h - problem solved.


Without a means of varying the hydraulic brake bias through the braking zone (which is outlawed) a KERS equipped car will waste some of it's braking potential, rendering it less competitive than it could have been.

The rear brakes will probably need to be fitted with ABS, to prevent KERS from interfering with the braking system. I don't see why they couldn't adapt the rules accordingly.

 

[Warpspeed]

Now all we need to do figure out how to make compact high inertia energy storage flywheels with very low total mass.

 

[globi5]

At least according to this article, 82 Wh/kg flywheel is achievable. This is in the same range as a Lithium Ion Battery but with a much higher power density.

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_109202/article.html

This would mean 1 kg of flywheel is enough to store 60 kW for almost 5 seconds. Or 4 kg of flywheel is sufficient for almost 20 seconds at 60 kW.