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Facts, Myths, and Givens in Anthropogenic Climate Change (ACC) 36

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zdas04

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Jun 25, 2002
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I have been repeatedly accused of refusing to accept the basic "facts" of Anthropogenic Cimate Change (ACC nee AGW, nee Global Warming, nee Global cooling). I think we really need to define terms.

In the following I'm going to rely heavily on The Shattered Greenhouse: How Simple Physics Demolishes the "Greenhouse Effect". I've linked the article in for anyone who wants to check my interpretation of the story. It has an extensive bibliography at the end for further reading.

Greenhouse Effect
The basic idea of a greenhouse gas comes from Arrhenius' in 1896 representing (some say misrepresenting) the work of Fourier from 1827
Arrhenius (1896 said:
"Fourier maintained that the atmosphere acts like the glass of a hothouse, because it lets through the light rays of the sun but retains the dark rays from the ground."
In other words, visible light can traverse the atmosphere more easily than infrared can traverse the atmosphere back into space. Fourier actually said nothing of the kind, but it has entered our collective culture that he did.

This idea ignores the fact that in greenhouses, the glass acts to prevent the heated air from mixing with the ambient air outside the box (i.e., prevents mass transfer) and has nothing to do with different wave lengths of light. The ACC concept says that the heating is due to energy absorption and disregards the fact that hot gases rise and there is no physical barrier to how far they can rise.

The linked article ends with:
Consulting Geologist said:
In the real physics of thermodynamics, the measurable thermodynamic properties of common atmospheric gases predict little if any influence on temperature by carbon dioxide concentration and this prediction is confirmed by the inconsistency of temperature and carbon dioxide concentrations in the geological record. Moreover, when the backradiation "Greenhouse Effect" hypothesis of Arrhenius is put to a real, physical, material test, such as the Wood Experiment, there is no sign of it because the "Greenhouse Effect" simply does not exist. This is why the "Greenhouse Effect" is excluded from modern physics textbooks and why Arrhenius' theory of ice ages was so politely forgotten. It is exclusively the "Greenhouse Effect" due to carbon dioxide produced by industry that is used to underpin the claim that humans are changing the climate and causing global warming. However, without the "Greenhouse Effect", how can anyone honestly describe global warming as "anthropogenic"?

If the thermodynamic underpinning of the "Greenhouse Effect" is absolutely missing, ACC does not have a leg to stand on.

Carbon Dating
Much has been made about the "fact" that atmospheric CO[sub]2[/sub] must have come from geologically old sources because of the lack of Carbon-14 in the atmospheric CO[sub]2[/sub]. The idea of carbon dating is the result of very creative work in 1946 by Willard Libby at the University of Chicago. His concept is that Nitrogen-14 in the atmosphere is bombarded by solar radiation and that some proportion of the impacts will cause the stable nitrogen to lose a neutron and become radioactive Carbon-14 (radiocarbon). He further postulated that the number of collisions is relatively constant and that as animals breathed the C14 a portion of it would be absorbed into their systems and decay to Carbon 12 over time. This means that as long as the animal is breathing they will be ingesting C14. When the animal stops breathing they will stop ingesting C14 and the inventory of radiocarbon in their bodies will decay with a half life of 5730 years. So if you find a sample with 1/4 as much C14 as you expect then it is something like 11,460 years old. There are a large number of assumptions that go into this calculation, and many of them are invalid for any given biological sample, and the uncertainty in dating cam be millennia.

The big question is what sources of fuel have zero C14? Of course hydrocarbons that haven't been alive for 300 million years likely have zero C14. Same with CO[sub]2[/sub] from volcanoes. What about biological material that has been frozen under the permafrost since the last ice age (2.58 to 0.012 million years ago)? That stuff has been through a lot of half lives of C14. So if the climate is warming, and if the permafrost is retreating, then biological action on the newly thawed material would have zero C14. This means that C14-free CO[sub]2[/sub] in the atmosphere does not necessarily have to come from industrial activity.

Temperature Record
The temperature record is not just one thing.
[ul]
[li]Data from 2005 might be from digital instruments that self-report or from satellite surrogates.[/li]
[li]Data from 1970 likely comes from analog instruments manually recorded[/li]
[li]Data from 1900 likely comes from spotty coverage at universities and on ships.[/li]
[li]Data from 1800 comes from ice cores, sea floor samples, and tree ring analysis[/li]
[li]Data from thousands of years ago to about 1.5 million years ago come from ice cores[/li]
[li]Data older than that comes from analysis of the fossil record (i.e., what kind of plants were growing? how big were they?)[/li]
[/ul]

We have no way to directly measure temperature. We can't do it today. We couldn't do it 100,000 million years ago. We can measure the impact of a given temperature on a material with very good accuracy and repeatability and very low uncertainty. That mercury thermometer that your mum stuck up your bum didn't measure your temperature, it measured the thermal expansion of the mercury in a constrained channel. All temperature data is the result of an evaluation of the impact on something physical to a temperature change. To turn ice core data into temperatures the scientist melts the ice then boils the water in a tightly controlled space and evaluates the gasses that come out of the sample. A computer model is used to convert the mix of gases into a temperature. These models are very clever and quite involved. If you assume that CO[sub]2[/sub] forces temperature change, you get one set of temperature numbers. If you assume that changes in CO[sub]2[/sub] are a result of temperature change you get a very different set of temperature numbers. When people plot CO[sub]2[/sub] concentration on the same graph as "temperature" data they are being purposely misleading since everyone with the ability to run this calculation knows that they have selected "cause" or "effect" before they generated the temperature numbers and in spite of having different scales they are actually the same number.

The oldest data has a temporal uncertainty of no less than ±10,000 years. The Ice core data is probably ±200 years. Data from the 1800's is certainly ±1-2 years. Data from the early 1900's is around ±6 months. More contemporary data has a better temporal uncertainty.

Contemporary data is collected from thousands of weather stations and stored in a database. The database (actually there are several, each its own format) contains one record per station per time period. No indication that the data is anything but true and accurate like scientific data is supposed to be. It is anything but that. "Everyone" understands that temperature on a blacktop surface is higher than temperature on a grassy field. As urban populations have expanded to formerly rural spaces, many weather stations have shifted from rural to urban. If you look at the data for the station, there is a step change in the output. To be able to compare a station that is currently urban to data from when it was rural, requires some "adjustments". These adjustments are done destructively without even a flag in the database. Also many of the stations have been broken for months or years and just receive "estimates", without any explicit definition of the estimating technique.

Finally, the historical record can be modified. Luckily several "outsiders" made copies of the databases at various times. Comparing those copies to the "official" records indicates some distinct trends. Several warm periods from the past are no longer included in the historical record. Data from 2000, show the 1930's to have been as much as 5°F warmer than the current string of "warmest on record years". Many of those record-breaking years were warmer by less than 0.05°F when the contemporary records have an uncertainty of ±0.1°F, but "Warmest Year on Record" gets headlines.

Impact of Climate Change
The list of things that ACC is going to cause has been widely published. It includes wildfires, more hurricanes, more tornadoes, floods, droughts, more deserts, reduced biodiversity, rising sea level, etc. This list was generated by a group of grad students sitting around a table throwing out ideas. Things like "when it is hotter it feels like the desert, I bet deserts will grow". In fact the geological record shows that in general during a warm epoch there is additional moisture in the atmosphere and deserts shrink--this is happening today all over the world. The list of consequences is not part of the "science" of ACC, but the scientists involved have rarely spoken out against the list. The scientific theories of ACC talk about physical reactions, but they can't even predict clouds or rotating systems let alone wildfires.

Consensus
Before you say you "believe" in ACC remember:
Belief is the acceptance of a theory in the absence of data
For every Michael Mann there is a Judith Curry. For every Al Gore there is a Jim Imhoff (U.S. Senator from Oklahoma). For every David Suzuki there is a Lord Monkton. For every Bill Nye there is a Jack-in-the-Box Clown. For every IPCC report there are contributors who claim their statements were misrepresented. The 97% consensus was made up from whole cloth. Before this subject got so political and began having so much money thrown at it, there were frank and honest discussions among the scientific community and people of varying views could get published or get on the podium at conferences. Not today. There are a large number of scientists who have actually lost tenure for holding opinions that the ACC story does not hold up to scrutiny, and getting published with papers outside the mainstream is nearly impossible. Not the "science" of my youth.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
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Lol, in this thread I've learned that politicians know more about climate change than the people studying it.


Some of the deniers on here should go thru the above link and cite their sources as they discredit the entire wiki page on how global warming works. The first person to recognize the possibility lived in 1896!

Global warming isn't Santa Claus. You don't get to believe in it or not. It is happening. It is easy science.

Here's a 3 minute video with cartoons. Please tell me how it is wrong with sources:
 
Wel,
I think people so desperately want to impress others with their knowledge that you are all over complicating the entire discussion.



Regards,
Matt
 
@matt,

interesting, could you explain your version of the discussion ?


another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
 
The concluding remarks from the snopes article seem reasonable:

"As interesting as this nearly century-old article might be from a modern perspective, however, it isn’t substantive evidence either for or against the concept of anthropogenic global warming. As documented elsewhere, the warming phenomena observed in 1922 proved to be indicative only of a local event in Spitzbergen, not a trend applicable to the Arctic as a whole."



Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
 
I wonder if the relevance to today's discussion is data being misunderstood and wrong conclusions being drawn ?
though, of course, the article isn't prima facie evidence for or against ACC.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
 
Awhicker -

I enjoyed that short cartoon you linked to. There is one item that was mentioned that I have a question about. The part where it says that relatively small changes in carbon dioxide in the air have been linked to large changes in temperature based on the ice core records.

I read someone (Michael Crighton?) give a relatively convincing argument that this correlation isn't as definitive at it would seem. That when examining the ice core data, the increase in temperatures appears to occur before the increase in CO2. Anyone else read something similar?

Note: to me, this doesn't raise many issues with the overall concept of global warming gases. Just maybe calls into question how accurate some of the computer models will be if they use the ice core correlation as a basis of their model. After all there are so many other variables that may have been changing at the same time.
 
Josh, you are correct. The 800 year lag between rising temperature and rising CO2 is discussed in the documentary "The Great Global Warming Swindle", to which I posted a link in an earlier thread by the same name. I have not seen any refutation of this very damning evidence, except a very pronounced silence.
 
"I have not seen any refutation of this very damning evidence, except a very pronounced silence."

Only if you choose not to search for something that happened and was refuted more than 10 years ago.:

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Compositepro - apart from there not having been a silence on this topic, as IRstuff illustrates, it is not clear to me why you see this evidence as "damning".

The climate is affected by factors other than the concentration of CO2. No climate scientist would dispute that.

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
 
TDS: precisely. That CO2 lagged climate changes in past is no evidence whatsoever AGAINST the climactic forcing arising from the narrowing of the IR window into space which increased atospheric CO2 concentration represents.
 
I was afraid that there might be some actual refutation presented in the links above. They are simply more piling onto the global warming religion with testimonials.

From IRstuff's first link:
PROFESSOR CHRIS RAPLEY CBE, BRITISH ANTARCTIC SURVEY, writes:

This refers to the records of Antarctic climate and CO2 obtained from Antarctic ice cores covering the last 650,000 years. In these, the Earth can be seen to undergo natural changes from glacial conditions to warmer times like the present.

When temperature is warm, the CO2 concentration is high, and when temperature is cold, the CO2 concentration is low. During the exit from glacial periods (for example the transition from the last cold period, between about 18,000 and 11,000 years ago), both temperature and CO2 increased slowly and in parallel.

Close analysis of the relationship between the two curves shows that, within the uncertainties of matching their timescales, the temperature led by a few centuries.

This is expected, since it was changes in the Earth's orbital parameters (including the shape of its orbit around the Sun, and the tilt of Earth's axis) that caused the small initial temperature rise. This then raised atmospheric CO2 levels, in part by out-gassing from the oceans, causing the temperature to rise further. By amplifying each other's response, this "positive feedback" can turn a small initial perturbation into a large climate change.

There is therefore no surprise that the temperature and CO2 rose in parallel, with the temperature initially in advance. In the current case, the situation is different, because human actions are raising the CO2 level, and we are starting to observe the temperature response.


This argument is hogwash. If CO2 lags temperature rise, it disproves CO2 causes temperature rise. The alarmists frequently use the graph of correlation to convince people that CO2 causes temperature change. It is very powerful and convincing evidence. But the lag, if anything, proves the opposite. One "scientist" testimonial even had the gall to say:

"Temperature leads CO2 by 800 years in the ice cores. Not quite as true as they said, but basically correct; however they misinterpret it. The way they said this you would have thought that T and CO2 are anti-correlated; but if you overlay the full 400/800 kyr of ice core record, you can’t even see the lag because its so small. The correct interpretation of this is well known: that there is a T-CO2 feedback."

I am becoming more and more convinced that saying 97% of climate scientists agree that global warming is man made is the same as saying that 97% of religious scholars agree that there is a god. I would expect more like 100%. And I do not believe it is a conspiracy. It is human nature.
 
"If CO2 lags temperature rise, it disproves CO2 causes temperature rise. "

No, it does not. As stated in the links, when temperature rises, CO2 rises, which is independent of whether a rise in CO2 can cause a rise in temperature.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Compositepro - just saying hogwash and repeating a statement that is at best a gross oversimplification doesn't get us anywhere.

If you think the quoted statements are hogwash, and expect other people to agree, you need to work through what they actually said, and explain why it is not valid.

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
 
CompositePro -

I'm glad you responded with the information about the (approximately) 800 year lag. And, the info on "The Great Global Warming Swindle". I will probably check that out. However, I'm equally glad that IRstuff responded with those links. I've read through one of them and it was really good. I think you might want to read them too.... I'm not saying this with the intent that these links can truly "disprove" your point of view. Rather I say it from the perspective that we all try to better understand why some genuinely smart, rational people come to an alternate conclusion on this CO2 and Global Warming concept.


 
Which link was it. I checked the first two and was disappointed enough to not continue. I don't really care about this subject enough spend my time on it, when that investment will not ultimately make any difference. I do care when politicians and "scientists" call for a carbon tax that will cost trillions when it is clear that that will not solve the problem. Taxes are not a scientific issue.

And, by the way, I did not say the lag disproves that CO2 causes warming, I said if anything it does. The main beef I have with the alarmists and the CO2 temperature correlation is that since Al Gore they have used the correlation as persuasive evidence of causation. The lag, if anything, disproves causation. Now they say, yes in the past global warming caused CO2 release from the oceans, and then CO2 caused more warming. So, why is there still life on earth? When the correlation is referenced without mentioning the lag, it is intentionally misleading. You cannot trust people who even once try to deceive you. So now the debate is political and not scientific. The script for the global warming debate seems to come straight out of the disaster and sci-fi movies of the last 70 years.

If the oceans rise 10 ft. in the next hundred years humanity will survive. In WWII Tokyo, Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, etc. were almost entirely destroyed. 20 years later they were bigger and economically better-off than ever. Global warming will not kill any one. Declaring urgency is a con artist tactic to get the victim to take the bait. Hurry, this special offer is only available today!
 
Well said Compositepro! Just ask yourself if the alarm message comes from anyone outside the reach of government funding or government brainwashing.
 
Well said Compositepro! Just ask yourself if the alarm message comes from anyone outside the reach of government funding or government brainwashing.

There are plenty of people who think climate change is a cause for concern who are not government funded and who consider all the evidence with an appropriate level of scepticism.

On the other hand I have not once seen anyone who calls themself a sceptic show the least hint of scepticism about any evidence that appears to support their opinion, or question any supportive opinion, even if it is expressed by someone with a vested interest.

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
 
I copied your text, verbatim. Again, misuse of the data does not prove or disprove whether a CO2 rise will result in warming; it merely proves that a rise in temperature can result in a rise in CO2. It says absolutely nothing about whether a rise CO2 can result in warming. The fact of the matter is that atmospheric CO2 concentration has been rising, which by your argument says that it should be lagging a temperature rise, so either way, temperature is rising.


"Just ask yourself if the alarm message comes from anyone outside the reach of government funding or government brainwashing"

What does that prove? Are you saying that scientists all over the world are money-grubbing ignorant sluts? Aside from being slanderous, it amounts to saying that there's a world-wide conspiracy of silence from any climate scientists who are honest? Or that all those scientists that are beholden to fossil fuel interests are pure as the driven snow? Interestingly, our president's choices for officials are indeed behold to oil and coal interests, and have been busily silencing government scientists.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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