Flint Municipal water 89

[moon161]

So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/14/e...nation-for-months-without-telling-the-public/

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/15874

There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?

 

[JohnRBaker]

The real responsibility lies with the Republican dominated legislature which in 2011, after the 2010 election of Republican Rick Snyder as Governor, replaced a much less draconian law that allowed the Governor to intercede when a city fell into financial crisis. The old law had rarely been invoked since it was passed in 1988. However after the newer, more authoritarian law was passed, several cities were virtually taken over by the Governor appointing an 'emergency manager' and a 'board of directors' who legally replaced the elected officials of the city, including the mayor and the city council. Flint was one of those cites. Now these 'emergency managers' were given authority to sell city assets, cancel contracts, renegotiate labor agreements with city employees, etc.

For example, when the Governor took over the City of Detroit, a proposal was made to liquidate the Detroit Institute of Arts, one of the largest and most famous art museums in the US. The idea was to sell the various works of art to private individuals and/or corporations and to close the museum down. It was this potential 'theft' of what's really art that belonged to the people of Detroit, the state and in fact, the entire country, that prompted, in part, a petition being put on the 2012 ballot, which passed overwhelmingly, repealing this new law. However the Governor went back to his Republican legislator and got an almost identical law passed. The only real difference, and this is what the courts had questioned, was that the a city's elected officials would remain in place, but were reduced in authority to an advisory role but at least kept the semblance that the citizens of the city were still having a say in its operation, but the Emergency Manager and his 'board', for all intents and purposes, was still in control. As for the Detroit Institute of Arts, when Detroit was negotiating its final bankruptcy agreement it was decided to establish a non-profit corporation to which the assets of the museum were transferred and which was chartered to hold them in the name of the people of Detroit and the state.

This is the situation today in Flint where the Emergency Manager decided to stop using water purchased from the Detroit Metropolitan Water System and start taking water from the Flint River, which has been deem so polluted that 20 some years ago, General Motors, the largest employer in the city, stopped using Flint River water due to its corrosive nature even when used for strictly industrial uses. In fact, the lack of a good water supply is part of what led GM to close many of it's manufacturing facilities in the Flint area over the last 15- 20 years.

John R. Baker, P.E.
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Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
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To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[moon161]

Still, while agreeing completely with the political critique, an engineer had to be involved in the implementation. Someone had to realize what was going on. I think the story broke publicly when a woman moved out of Flint, but kept some of the water and had it tested in VA where she moved to.

Someone almost HAD to turn a valve and think 'this ain't going to end well', or at least 'sucks to be them'. Should they have spoken up? (granted, there is zero protection for government whistleblowers these days- look at Tom Drake, Jeffrey Sterling or William Binney)

Is it possible the there was diffusion of responsibility, like illustrated in the diffuse bureaucratic kill chain shown in the Drone Papers?

https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/the-kill-chain/

About the DIA, I know it was amazing when I went there, and all of the boardups reminded me of Buffalo, where I live. Dawoud Bey was up, and Whistler too. The Whistler collection is now in the Freer in DC still public, I managed to see the peacock room in each museum. really something amazing.

 

[JohnRBaker]

It appears to have been an investigator from the ACLU that first requested that Virginia Tech test water samples from Flint, per the item below:

http://www.toledoblade.com/JackLess...bill-has-basis-in-Flint-s-water-troubles.html

And if you read this item it would seem that there was criminal malfeasance by people at several Michigan state departments and at several levels:

http://flintwaterstudy.org/2015/09/commentary-mdeq-mistakes-deception-flint-water-crisis/

And it appears that the people in the Governor's office knew about the seriousness of the water problem in Flint at least six months before it was started to be talked about in the national media and before any real action was taken to either reverse the decision to use water from the Flint River instead of the Detroit Water System or before the stated started to provide bottled water to the residents of Flint. Until it made the national news, the story was that it was OK to continue to drink the water. But people inside the Governor's office knew what was happening and they were trying to get someone to do something. BTW, the Governor's chief-of-staff, who is the person who sent this email six months ago, just resigned effective immediately (perhaps we will be hearing from him again as the U.S. Justice Department starts to ramp-up it's investigation):

http://michiganradio.org/post/email-snyders-chief-staff-people-flint-are-getting-blown-us#stream/0

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[Duwe6]

So far, I haven't seen an analysis of which pipes the lead is coming from. Is it being leached out of the Flint municipal mains? Or is it from private houses that were plumbed with lead? I could see the 'city fathers' not making allowances for lead pipes on private property.

BTW: the word 'plumbing' comes from plumbum - Lead - Pb. And lead pipes and drinking-ware was one of the contributing causes of the fall of the Roman Empire.

 

[JohnRBaker]

No, it's coming from the city mains. In one of the items in my last note there's a story about one of the early citizen activists who, when they bought their home, had been forced to install all new plumbing because when the house had been sitting empty while it was on the market someone had broken in a stripped it of all its copper piping for the scrap value. So they had all plastic plumping installed yet when the city's water was switched they were one of the first people to have their water tested and it showed the high levels of lead.

BTW, one of the reason that I've been following this story is that my wife used to live in Flint and she still has several cousins living in the area there whom she stays in regular contact with.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[MartinLe]

Duwe6 If you read the second link in R Bakers last post, you'll find the story of at least one resident who had plastic pipes in her house and high lead in her water, while the piping to her house was lead.

It seems like several people within MDEQ knowingly lied and broke their rules, by not having a corrosion protection program and other things. I think as engineers we need to face the fact that we could land in a similar situation: Noticing that our company/institution is breaking a law or code for a while now and we are expected to cover it up.
Not trying to excuse the behavior, just pointing out that resisting authority and peer pressure is hard.

 

[Duwe6]

Hope Flint has a gooood insurance carrier. Sounds like they are about to be sued by thousands of home-owners with children.

And it is amazing what happens when you "Drop a Dime" and phone the authorities. Screw up structural calc's or pressure vessel design and I know who too call. When a municipality self-certifies its own work, who can be called?

 

[moon161]

For comparison, my son had a marginal high lead test, one or 2 retests to confirm, a visit from the county, identification of sources (lead paint on a door, contact with unfired ceramic glaze), source removal, follow up testing, all inside a couple months. In Erie county, close to Detroit on the rust belt and the poor rankings. I think the county was under under an unelected control board in and out for the past 15 years or so.

 

[moon161]

Which leads to a question, why weren't pediatricians blowing this up?

 

[JohnRBaker]

Flint is a very poor city and I suspect that most children there have never been seen by a pediatrician. They're lucky if their parents can get them to a public clinic for their health care needs.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[oldestguy]

On the radio this morning a civil engineer was quoted as saying a $100 expense could have prevented it. No further explanation came. Perhaps that is a cost for a water test.

 

[JedClampett]

Actually, oldestguy, that's the monthly cost for a anti corrosive agent. Supposedly, it was proposed, but vetoed due to cost.
It sounds like it meets the narrative, but I doubt that would of prevented the whole issue.

 

[berkshire]

I remember as a teenager going to a water treatment plant on a guided tour, seeing the plant operators dumping lime into the water.
I was told it was to adjust the PH of the water and to make sure a liner of carbonate was formed inside lead pipes to prevent metallic lead leaching into the water. I was also told this was 100 year old technology.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

 

[JohnRBaker]

It's being reported that Michigan's governor, Rick Snyder, is considering demanding that Washington should assume responsibility for refurbishing Flint's municipal water system including replacing all of the city's water mains.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[hokie66]

It appears that in this tragic city, there is plenty of blame to go around. The Federal EPA, as well as the Flint City government, share some responsibility with the State.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...-stayed-silent-flints-tainted-water/78719620/

 

[racookpe1978]

Never fear.

Washington is appointing a federal level democrat bureaucrat to fix it.

Ain't an engineer. Ain't even a contractor. Ain't even a plumber. But that new bureaucrat is gonna fix it, fer sure. /sarchasm

 

[cranky108]

I don't understand how blowing wind will fix this problem? If this were a business someone would expect a criminal case, but being government no one will be charged, and the public will be left with the bill.

That's it, work for the government and be free from any mistakes you might make.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Here's an item from June 2014. I suspect that the people in the photo are now regretting TWO things; a) bragging about how they had just saved the average family in Flint $35/month on their water bills, and b) actually toasting this accomplishment with water FROM the Flint River. Karma can be a real bitch at times:

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2014/06/post_386.html

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[seaaggie]

BTW, Does anyone know why the Flint river is so polluted in the first place?

Thanks,
Mark