Flint Municipal water 89

[moon161]

So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/14/e...nation-for-months-without-telling-the-public/

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/15874

There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?

 

[JohnRBaker]

Just speculating, but I would say that 100+ years of heavy industrial manufacturing operations, primary General Motors, located along the river where they could easily draw out process and cooling water and then returning it a bit further downstream, probably had something to do with it.

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[HEHurst]

It sounds like there were some mistakes or bad decisions made by numerous different organizations, and I imagine it will take a while to find out the real story of the chain of events and decisions that led to this situation (if we ever do find out the true story)

I'm not a drinking water treatment engineer, but I'm a civil engineer that does work in the areas of water resources and municipal engineering...A couple things that I have questions on:

A lot of blame being placed on both the state (governors office and Michigan Dept of Environmental Quality - MDEQ) as well as the federal government (EPA). But few people in the media seem to be questioning the local water utility. The locals should know their water source and quality and their distribution system better than anyone, right? Isn't there some sort of general manager and/or head engineer at the water utility or the City's public works department that should have recognized that lack of corrosion control was a really bad idea? MDEQ had regulatory responsibility to review the source water switch and screwed up too, and US EPA arguably had some responsibility (though it sounds like they are trying to pass the buck back to MDEQ) but who did all the planning, design and implementation of the source water switch and the upgrades to the City's treatment plant to treat the river water? Or was the state of Michigan handling that too, because of the emergency manager takeover? Or perhaps we will find out that somebody locally in the water utility or public works raised an alarm but was overruled.
Flint is one of the biggest cities in Michigan...this isn't some small community water system serving 500 people.
It seems strange to me that the City of Flint Utility/Public Works has seemed invisible through this crisis.

If the cost information being put out there is accurate, it doesn't sound like the implementation of corrosion control would have been a cost that would have jeopardized the project. So far it sounds like a (tragic) oversight or screwup, probably compounded by the fact that people began to realize the mistake but didn't want to admit it or wanted to cover their own butts...
From what I have been able to gather so far (and again I'm not a drinking water treatment engineer), it sounds like Flint had no real corrosion control program of their own, because the quality of the treated water they were getting from Detroit didn't require Flint to do anything additional. So before the source water switch, it sounds their corrosion control program was "we let Detroit handle this". Isn't it really, really stupid to just assume that they wouldn't need a corrosion control program when they switched to Flint River water? From the news articles, it sounds like they were telling MDEQ "yes, we have a corrosion control program, you can check that box", and it sounds like MDEQ agreed with that, for many months. But that "corrosion control program" was "Detroit does it for us", BUT THEN Flint stopped using Detroit water. I guess they were also planning on continue to do sampling and monitoring and data collection, and see if six months or a year of data showed any problems...but wouldn't you typically do some sort of pilot testing in this situation, or start to implement corrosion control knowing the characteristics of the source water.

I sort of hope there is more to the story, because if not, that just sounds like a really, really dumb interpretation of what a corrosion control program is...and then it sounds like MDEQ and US EPA began to argue for months about "Does this meet the bureaucratic requirements of corrosion control and the Lead and Copper Rule"? Shouldn't somebody have quickly stepped up and said, regardless of how you interpret MDEQ standards and the Lead and Copper Rule, it's obvious from the data we are seeing and what we know about the source water and the age of the system that what we are doing is not adequate...?!?

Shaking my head...I think we'd all like to think that we'd behave differently if we were faced with a similar situation, but I try to remind myself that you can't really know what it would be like to be in someone else's shoes...

 

[JohnRBaker]

HEHurst, perhaps you missed what I originally posted on January 17th as this might help explain the environment under which the city's water department employees were working when this switch-over was made:

The real responsibility lies with the Republican dominated legislature which in 2011, after the 2010 election of Republican Rick Snyder as Governor, replaced a much less draconian law that allowed the Governor to intercede when a city fell into financial crisis. The old law had rarely been invoked since it was passed in 1988. However after the newer, more authoritarian law was passed, several cities were virtually taken over by the Governor appointing an 'emergency manager' and a 'board of directors' who legally replaced the elected officials of the city, including the mayor and the city council. Flint was one of those cites. Now these 'emergency managers' were given authority to sell city assets, cancel contracts, renegotiate labor agreements with city employees, etc.

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[bimr]

This was not an engineering failure, just another failure of the right wingnuts and their nonsense policies.

JohnRBaker is correct in that it is the Governors responsibility. It is important to recognize that the top level officials in many agencies such as the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality are political appointees. Even when the officials are not appointed by the Governor, they will kowtow to more important officials. The Governor also appointed the Flint Emergency Manager. Rick Snyder bears sole responsibility and should resign.

It is interesting that political office is the only position where lack of experience is an asset. In Rick Snyder's case, he previously was employed as an accountant.

It is not necessary to study corrosion problems from water. An experienced water professional should be able to review the water analysis and within 5 minutes make a recommendation. It is not rocket science.

The only corrosion inhibitor that is guaranteed to be successful is an alkali like lime or sodium hydroxide. Raising the pH will cause the water to be slightly scaling as evidenced by the Langelier index. Most communities do not raise the pH as it is expensive. A few mg/L of chemical are inexpensive, but when multiplied by millions of gallons per day, the costs add up.

Orthophosphate is used as a corrosion inhibitor, but in practice, only a very small amount is used rendering the chemical to be ineffective. The results of orthophosphate are not scientifically proven, and can be termed as more artistic than science.

Flint had a bacterial problem early on in the switch to Flint River water. This led to the City increasing the chlorine dosage which in turn contributed to more corrosion.

Lead contamination is normally associated with the service connections. The service connections are the 3/4-Inch pipes from the 8-Inch City mains in the street to the residence. There may be some corrosion products from the City water mains, but corrosion of the City mains will be minimal as compared to the service connections. The homeowner usually is responsible for the service connections, not the City. In some older areas of Cities, the pipes are made of lead. New service connections are made with copper or PVC.

Lead pipes for carrying drinking water were well recognized as a cause of lead poisoning by the late 1800s in the United States. By the 1920s, many cities and towns were prohibiting or restricting their use. To combat this trend, the lead industry carried out a prolonged and effective campaign to promote the use of lead pipes. Led by the Lead Industries Association (LIA), representatives were sent to speak with plumbers’ organizations, local water authorities, architects, and federal officials. The LIA also published numerous articles and books that extolled the advantages of lead over other materials and gave practical advice on the installation and repair of lead pipes. The LIA’s activities over several decades therefore contributed to the present-day public health and economic cost of lead water pipes.

 

[seaaggie]

What if there was a technical person that told the Governor what he wanted to hear? Isn't that a worse crime?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[JohnRBaker]

It's been reported that Rick Snyder's chief-of-staff, who has since resigned, DID tell the Governor as many as nine months ago that they had screwed-up and that it was unforgivable to continue to let people think that everything was OK. I suspect that he will not be serving out his full term.

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[HEHurst]

bimr,
I appreciate your input on some of the technical and chemical background.
I'm still not convinced there was no engineering failure and only a policy failure, or that the governor bears sole responsibility. Is it your contention that there was likely no safe way to use the Flint River as the raw water source, or that there simply wasn't time for the proper design and implementation, and that the City was forced into that plan of action because of political interference or financially-based decisions? I would at least be willing to consider that line of reasoning, though do we know enough yet to say that's the case?

It sounds like MDEQ made some serious mistakes (I was reading more today at http://flintwaterstudy.org/http://flintwaterstudy.org/ )...so if you're arguing that Rick Snyder as the governor ultimately bears responsibility for the actions of DEQ, I could see that line of reasoning...or if you're arguing that a political climate was created where sound technical decisions were overruled or technical input was disregarded in favor of political or financial considerations, I could imagine that such an environment may have existed. And certainly, if Governor Snyder knew nine months ago there was a serious problem but tried to cover it up or downplay it, that's terrible and he should be held responsible for that.

I'm also learning more about the timing of Detroit's decision to shut off water to Flint, and what options may have been available to keep negotiating with Detroit.
From what I've read, once Flint reached an agreement with the Karegnondi Water Authority (the new Lake Huron pipeline) to obtain Lake Huron water from the Karegnondi authority, they notified Detroit - and Detroit gave them a one-year notice of termination the next day (I assume this was within the rights of Detroit to do, according to whatever contract they had with Flint to supply water). The new Lake Huron pipeline wouldn't be online for three years. Did Flint, or its emergency manager, assume they would have access to Detroit water for the full 3 years it would take to build the pipeline? At first I thought Detroit unilaterally told them the cutoff period was one year with no option for negotiation, but something I read today said that Detroit was willing to open negotiations again, but Flint turned them down. If the emergency manager or whoever shut down further negotiations with Detroit to save a buck or for political considerations, knowing they would have to turn to Flint River water for a few years, and not knowing if the river water was suitable because they hadn't done their due diligence, I agree that's a very bad policy decision.

 

[boo1]

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) knew about the problems that led to Flint, Mich.’s, drinking water crisis in April of last year.

Marc Edwards, a Virginia Tech researcher who helped uncover the lead problem and documentation about the EPA’s role, said the federal agency’s response was unacceptable.

The Fed did nothing

 

[HEHurst]

US EPA is saying that their role was to advise Michigan DEQ, and that it was Michigan DEQ's responsibility to determine/enforce any sort of corrective action.
Certainly does seem like some within EPA tried to disregard or at least downplay the findings of recommendations of Miguel Del Toral. Either the MDEQ or someone within management in EPA Region V characterized him as a rogue actor.

 

[HEHurst]

I just saw the news, announced within the last hour, that Susan Hedman, head of EPA Region 5 (which oversees Michigan and five other Midwestern states) is resigning effective February 1st.

 

[bimr]

This situation is a political failure just like the situation that occurred with Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans. Remember the phrase "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." Who is the person playing the part of Brownie?

There was no significant issue with Detroit shutting down their water. Detroit is also in bankruptcy and was probably just trying to generate money for their own problems. With a notice of a year, a project could have been completed for any water treatment plant. The problem is the lack of funds for an impoverished community. Snyder could have put pressure on the Detroit Water System to allow more time as well.

Susan Hedman - political appointee. She fell on her sword and resigned. Probably felt that she did not want to spend the rest of her life in congressional hearings. The majority political party in Congress sets the agenda. Right now, that is the republicans. Look at what the republicans have done with the Benghazi hearings. The republicans will make this issue a political football even though they have no interest in assisting Flint.

Dan Wyant, the Director of the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality also resigned. He is another political appointee with no background in the environmental business.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/danwyant

Prior to being Director of the MDEQ, he was President of a cat litter foundation.

Rick Snyder appointed Wyant. Why did he not appoint someone qualified?

Rick Synder also appointed the Emergency Manager who signed off on the water switch decision and was in charge of running the City of Flint.

The water analyses can be downloaded from the water department website:

https://www.cityofflint.com/public-works/utilitieswater/water-treatment-plant/

You can calculate the Langelier Index here. The Langelier Index is an empirical measure of the corrosivity of the water:

http://www.lenntech.com/calculators/langelier/index/langelier.htm

The backup Flint water system for treating Flint River water consists of a lime softening/filtration plant. It is probably adequate to treat the Flint River water and remove all contaminants but the water treatment plant did not appear to be operated correctly as evidenced by the low Langelier reading. The pH of the water after lime softening has been lowered to a pH level that is corrosive.

I picked an example date of May 6 2015. Here is the result for the Langelier Index:

"Slightly corrosive but non-scale forming."

In March 2015 Flint’s emergency manager ordered the city to pay Veolia $40,000 for a 160-hour study of the city’s water issues. The report is also not stamped by a Professional Engineer. An engineer’s report is required to be prepared by a Professional Engineer.

https://www.cityofflint.com/wp-content/uploads/Veolia-REPORT-Flint-Water-Quality-201503121.pdf

This fiasco is nothing more than Michigan's "New Orleans" moment. Thousands of poor people, no jobs, no tax base, no City money, water bills that the residents cannot afford to pay, and on and on.

http://www.workers.org/articles/2016/01/19/flint-demands-water-justice/

 

[moon161]

This is a big and deep discussion. Thank you everybody.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Maybe it's just me, but the moment I see someone labeled (republican, democrat, etc.), and their political affiliation has zero to do with why their decision was right/wrong, I tune out.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[cranky108]

I agree with MacGyver.

The question I would have, and I don't expect an answer, is if the governor appoints someone, does he actually know him, or is he appointing someone from a recommendation?
The first would be cronyism, the second would be what I would have expected.

If the city is truly broke as in without the means to pay the bills from tax revenues, then what caused that? Who really run off the taxpayers?

 

[JohnRBaker]

In the case of Flint it was a combination of the deindustrialization of the area which simply accelerated the 'White flight' that had been going on for some 30+ years. My wife used to live there and when we stop and visit the cousins who still live in the area, it's been a really sad situation, even before this tragedy. As Micheal Moore has stated, who was born and raised in Flint and who still has family there himself, if this had been Grosse Point or Birmingham, two very wealthy (and predominantly White) cities near Detroit, this would have never been allowed to happen.

John R. Baker, P.E.
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[bimr]

All well and good to tune out. But you are tuning out of real life.

The resume of the former Director of the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality is included below. This is the guy that was President of the cat litter foundation. Please convince me that he was qualified for the position and "their political affiliation has zero to do with why their decision was right/wrong."

The bottom line is this is a political failure. The political appointees put in place by the party in power lacked the experience and management capabilities to correctly operate the water utility.

At the end of the day, the political appointees still have to accomplish what they were hired to do.

Unlike the private sector where people are rarely held responsible for their failures, in the government sector, you are more likely to be held accountable.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

As Micheal Moore has stated, who was born and raised in Flint and who still has family there himself, if this had been Grosse Point or Birmingham, two very wealthy (and predominantly White) cities near Detroit, this would have never been allowed to happen.

Could that be because the more affluent/educated folks are more likely to take an interest in the day-to-day runnings of the machine they live in, at least compared to the less affluent/educated?

I don't have evidence either way, so it truly is a question, but the assertion seems relatively plausible...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[IRstuff]

"At the end of the day, the political appointees still have to accomplish what they were hired to do."

But, they're hired to run an organization have have subordinates who are all supposed to know their stuff. The CEO of Boeing isn't necessarily going to know the ins and outs of the navigation system on a 787. If he ignored expert advice, then sure, he should be canned and blacklisted.

As for wealthy/educated, while there's correlation for many such things that are labeled as racial or class bias, it's unclear which is the cause and which is the effect. Certainly, one can argue that those that are able, can move and find places that are better to live in; the converse is that they make wherever they live better, which smacks of trickle-down, which I don't subscribe to. I once was made to spend study time with the son of a friend of my mother, on the premise that my educational performance could somehow transfer to the other person through some sort of osmosis, which is, in essence, a form of trickle-down.

There have been studies that show that people move to live with like minded, and presumably, similarly situated, people. Chicken, egg?

TTFN
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[ornerynorsk]

Isn't there a Godwin's law for both Michael Moore and the playing of the race card? Good lord. There was both technical and political failure for this to have happened. It's insidious to continually draw upon the down-trodden flavor of the day as a contributing factor to the varied ills of the world.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Try telling that to the people of Flint and the 8,000, mostly African-American children under the age of six, who have just been given a third-strike due to the fact they're probably going to suffer permanent mental and psychological damage that will reduce their chances of living the American dream even more so than what their prospects were before this happened.

John R. Baker, P.E.
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