Continue to Site

Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

Register Log in
  • Congratulations KootK on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

Flint Municipal water 89

Status
Not open for further replies.
moon161

moon161

Mechanical
Dec 15, 2007
1,181
So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.



There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

Sort by date Sort by votes
I guess one could make a study of why or how the locations for testing are chosen. But unless there was influence for the purpose to be deceitful, I would not go there. And just maybe Mr. Glasgow was joking because he saw the flaw in the sites picked.

I would tend to think that some of this was bad luck, and not that the water company knew it had hired a evil super villain.

Then again, maybe the sites did not matter as samples can be switched in the lab. Who was running the lab?

 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The installation of lead pipes ended around 1920. Knowing this, it would be very simple to avoid areas of the City that were built prior to 1920.

Glasgow admitted to selective sampling:

"The arrest warrant for Glasgow states that he admitted submitting information that falsely showed all of the water samples were taken from locations with lead service lines."
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The consultant’s evaluation of the Flint plant paints a picture of an unorganized facility charged with ensuring 100,000 residents have clean water, saying Flint’s municipal water treatment plant staff were “unprepared and ill-equipped” to treat Flint River when the city left Detroit’s system.

“As one would expect with a staff that has limited experience with surface water treatment, there is an apparent lack of understanding of water treatment concepts and how those concepts can apply to controlling treatment processes in ways that ensure high quality finished water,” the consultants wrote.

The firm found Flint’s water plant has no inventory of its equipment or documentation detailing how old it is and what it would cost to replace the water treatment equipment.

“There is no inventory of critical spare parts, and purchasing policy has limited the acquisition of an appropriate inventory of parts,” the consultants wrote in their report. “There is no formal work order program to prioritize, track, and evaluate the effectiveness of maintenance tasks.”

Water plant staff described Flint’s purchasing policy as “cumbersome” and “lengthy,” the consultants said.

The EPA’s consultants also expressed concern the Flint water plant has far too few employees.

“Staffing is inadequate for water treatment plant maintenance needs, and additional staff are also required for maintenance of facilities that are not essential for water quality,” the consulting firm wrote in its report.

No engineering failure was reported.

For the "water experts" that have made multiple posts on the forum, see if you can make time in your schedule for a trip to the AWWA conference this coming week. It is just 4 hours from Genesee County, Michigan:

 
Upvote 0 Downvote
bimr I had an error opening your attachment
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
From ENR:

To make Flint water crisis criminal charges stick against two licensed engineers employed by the state, Michigan’s attorney general will need to prove two things about Stephen Busch and Michael Prysby: that they made deliberate attempts to deceive the public about the lead levels in the city’s water and that they covered up or tried to cover up their deceptions or mistakes.

A third matter could prove just as important: that Busch and Prysby are the actual ones who directed and committed or covered up the alleged crimes.

Charged last April with felonies and misdemeanors in state court in Flint, Busch and Prysby face substantial prison sentences and fines.


Dik
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Probably none of these charges will stick. However, the charges will financially ruin those charged.

The AG is a career politician ambitious to be the governor. Attacking employees from a government agency agrees with his politics. In a May memo obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, the AG (Schuette) asked for $10.28 million in funding for Flint water crisis legal costs.

"SCHUETTE, WILLIAM D (BILL) has run in 3 races for public office, winning 3 of them. The candidate has raised a total of $6,216,866."

 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Too bad that Lansing wasn't willing to spend money like that actually addressing the problem when it first became apparent...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Upvote 0 Downvote
It'll be interesting to compare the sentencing (if any) at the conclusion of the legal process. Compare it to the Canadian Walkerton water tragedy (seven people died), where the sentences maxed out at one year in jail.

 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Probably wouldn't be that different, assuming the judge or jury isn't out for blood. The most that anyone could reasonably be convicted for is criminal negligence, or possibly fraud, for lying about their qualifications.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
It will be interesting to see how high the prosecutions go... not just the workers 'thrown under the bus'.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Unless it reaches Lansing, it won't be high enough...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Flint's financial crisis was largely state-made: From 2006 — the last year Flint ran a budget surplus — to the 2012 fiscal year, when it was placed under state receivership, state revenue sharing to Flint fell 61%, from $20 million to $7.9 million.

At every turn of the Flint story, there is an intersection between engineering and politics involving the MDEQ, the City of Flint and KWA, and John C. O’Malia.



 
Upvote 0 Downvote
In the article below, it's the first time that I've heard that part of the problem in Flint may have been that at least part of the responsibility to maintain safe drinking water was outsourced to a French company named 'Veolia'. Has anyone mentioned that in any of the items posted in this thread? The article below explains how people in Pittsburgh may also have problem with elevated levels of lead in their drinking water and it appears that this company, 'Veolia', may be partially to blame, and that they were also involved in the Flint disaster.


John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You can follow the link in that article to :
According to THP, Veolia was merely responsible for papering over the problem, but doesn't seem to have been involved with the actual water treatment, unlike elsewhere.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The AG filed a lawsuit against Veolia before even talking to Veolia. Veolia is really a minor player in this fiasco arriving late to the event and having a limited role. Just part of the AG'a legal strategy to try to pull in "deep pockets".

"Veolia was hired in February 2015 to address concerns about Flint's drinking water,but did not identify lead contamination as an issue.

By January 2015, complaints about the city's drinking water were reaching a fevered pitch - especially after residents were notified the water violated the federal standards because of high levels of triahalomethanes, a carcinogen.

Veolia was hired in February 2015, and spent 160 hours studying the Flint water system. The firm issued more than 20 recommendations in March to improve water quality.

However, the consultants did not identify the potential of lead contamination. Moreover, according to Schuette, they recommended the addition of acid to Flint's water system, which further worsened the issue of leaching lead.

"Veolia made a bad situation worse," Schuette said.

Veolia was paid $900 an hour for the expedited study, which cost a total of about $40,000."



This will be one of those project where the legal fees greatly exceed the project costs.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
"...spent 160 hours.." X "...$900 an hour..." = "...a total of about $40,000."

Did Flint accelerate it's common core implementation? [ponder]

gbangs
TC 8.3.3
NX 8.5.3.3 MP11
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

ProSafPlant1
  • Locked
  • Question
Calgary 2 m diameter water feeder main break
Replies
3
Views
114
coloeng
coloeng
JohnRBaker
  • Locked
  • News
Flint Municipal Water - Part 3
2
Replies
28
Views
218
drwebb
drwebb
1503-44
  • Locked
  • Question
Panama Canal Low Water 2
2
Replies
34
Views
171
dik
dik
JohnRBaker
  • Locked
  • News
Flint Municipal Water - Part 2 4
2
Replies
37
Views
199
dik
dik
enginesrus
  • Locked
  • Question
Hurricanes, Sea water, Corrosion and EV's 13
5 6 7
Replies
128
Views
735
FacEngrPE
FacEngrPE

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor

Back
Top Bottom