Flint Municipal water 89

[moon161]

So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/14/e...nation-for-months-without-telling-the-public/

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/15874

There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?

 

[JohnRBaker]

Public education has been part of the foundation of our democracy from the very beginning, going back even further than that in fact.

There are still some expenses which are incurred for the best interest of all of society and turning our backs on their need will only weaken our democracy. This is one of the things that Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr had in mind in 1927 when he stated, in a written opinion, that "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society."

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[bimr]

cranky108

One can't pick and choose a la carte the parts of the government that one wants to pay for.

In response, why should I pay for the roads that you drive on, the water that you use and pollute, the military and police department that protect you, etc.

If you have no government, you will have anarchy.

 

[canwesteng]

There's a Mitchell and Webb skit on youtube titled "kill the poor" that this is reminiscent of...

 

[HamburgerHelper]

I wouldn't say public education is a foundation of democracy. I would say a belief in the general ability to change things coupled with a loose understanding of the system. People in the past were much less educated but much more involved and knowledgeable about the system, laws, and policies. I don't know why this is. Some of it is I think is due to the lack communication. In the past, you had taverns which served as meeting centers and I think debates and real discussions happened. Now, people have the internet and likely only traffic forums and websites that line up with their existing beliefs. The system is not at all that complicated. You could explain how laws and the government works to 6 year old without too much trouble. You could educate the public to the gills on civics and still not have a healthy democracy if no believes they have the power to bring change.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I said that education was a "part of the foundation", not all of it.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[cranky108]

So it seems that many of you agree that government is there to serve the people.

And some of you believe the government should resolve you of taking part in an important part of your children's lives. That's so sad that you care so little.

Public education, like many programs for the poor, are there for the poor. And yes they are fund limited, but they are intended for the poor, and not the freeloaders.

So I should be asking, why you engineers are paid so little.

 

[bimr]

Why are there no libertarian countries, if libertarianism is such a sound political philosophy?

There was something close to a small government libertarian utopia in the late 19th century and it didn’t work out. Many Americans would never be able to save enough for retirement and, later, most of them would be unable to afford health insurance when they were old. Smaller government meant that too many people were poor and that monopolies were formed too easily.

Libertarianism is merely a different name for utopian anarchism and deserves to be ignored. Libertarianism is nothing more than a cult. The anti-government propaganda by plutocrats like the Koch brothers and various self-interested corporations reinforces and radicalizes the susceptible into thinking they are libertarians. This nonsense should play no greater role in public debate than do the followers of Lyndon LaRouche or L. Ron Hubbard.

 

[cranky108]

So where is the balance point? When is government too big, or too small?

A government that can require anything from you, can also do anything to you. I agree that a government is necessary, but it needs limits.

Safety nets are good, if you can accept the bad conditions of public housing. And if you did not pay for your housing, don't complain to me about how bad it is.

With over 100 years of public schools, why do we still need public housing anyway. Did the schools not teach people to do better?

People need to do more for themselves and quit being freeloaders. Yes there are people who need help, but with so many freeloading hands out, it's hard to tell the difference.

 

[bimr]

Flint’s mayor has announced that she recommends that Flint continue getting its drinking water from the Detroit-area system over the long term.

That probably means that the newer supplier of water (KWA) will be headed for insolvency. Doesn't say how Flint will be able to break their contract with KWA.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...t-mayor-karen-weaver-detroit-water/100597376/

 

[Spartan5]

Cranky: In a world in which "All men are created equal" (and I guess, if we included woman too), a 100 years of public schools might have accomplished your goal of "teaching people to live better." But if you look about you now, and certainly in the history of the past 100 years, you should be able to quickly dispel yourself of that notion.

Ignoring the impact of environmental factors like, say, lead poisoning from shabby housing and drinking water; the advantages and disadvantages realized by people are not bestowed upon them at their creation. They are cumulative across generations. A child born into poverty is not created equal. Especially when that poverty results from the accrued affects of institutionalized systemic discrimination, and societal marginalization of certain subsets of the population.

Teaching is (should be) also done at the home. And there is a lag for that to work out of the system as well (if the system provides for it). That can be pretty tough to do, when you have (if you're lucky) two parents scrapping multiple jobs together, relying on public transportation (at 2-3X the time cost of owning a car), and trying to just keep food on the table... and cable TV I guess. Because we have marketing and advertising subverting the role of the family and working on multiple levels of consciousness at once to create the perfect subsistence "consumer" (stuff more STUFF MORE STUUUUUUFFFFFFFFFF) to keep the wheels of the economy turning.

The rich get richer. And the poor get, well, poorer. That's the way the system wants it. That's Murphy's Golden Rule.

 

[cranky108]

In nature, as in much of humanity, all animals are not created equal. That natural selection is in play and will weed out the weak, sick, and disadvantaged.

In humanity, we tend to support the weak, sick, and disadvantaged, but it is impossible to support them to the same level as the richest people, without them becoming a huge burden on the rest of us.
So if we are to continue to support the weak, sick, and disadvantaged, we at some point need to decide at what level we should support them.

The problem is that some people, seeing us support the weak, sick, and disadvantaged, believe they can live at that level, knowing it would require less effort from them, than their full potential.
If we are to increase that level of support, we will attract more of the freeloaders.

So where is the point we call the level of support?

All men are created equal, refers to what should be in the eyes of the government, as far as rights. But not in the outcome of ones life. Unless you are implying all public schools must be the same, and that parents are not to help their children with there learning. or that people are not allowed to pay for a better education than the public schools offer.

If there is no incentive to improve your lot in life, then we all should be living in public housing, and working at simple minimum wage jobs.

But back to the question of what is the point we call the level of support? Should we agree to that as a nation, or leave it to the local population to decide, based on factors like weather, population, and economic conditions?

I likely rambled too much, but what's new there.

 

[dik]

ENR Article:

http://www.enr.com/articles/41825-why-you-should-never-be-an-ethical-bystander

Dik

 

[BigInch]

It's not because it is impossible, or too much of a burden on society. Cut the rubbish. May countries with far less GDP do a hell of a better job at it. It is simply because the collective, for one reason or another, does not want to. My guess is that there's not enough money in it for them, or ... they just don't want to. I can't understand how Americans can agree to have legal car, flood, or death insurance (you think they're betting that you'll live) allowed in the USA. "All those freeloading bad drivers out there and this system force ME to pay for THEIR smash ups. Shocking!"

Don't live in Flint? No worries? Now a nerve gas ... from the Nazis ... is being rolled out. Dow-Pruit have the solution to legal use. Simply discredit the data and change the law.

Find what you like to do, earn a living at it, and then make your lifestyle fit your income. — Chuck Yeager

 

[BigInch]

Everybody has an agenda. It's another word for opinion. Opinions are no less valid in a true democracy if they are written down to be brought up for discussion at a later date. Opinions are no less valid, if held by paid, or unpaid, protestors, or supporters. Democracy's responsibility is to find a solution that best serves the needs of all, not to discredit the needs of others, nor discredit the others themselves.

Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit


Find what you like to do, earn a living at it, and then make your lifestyle fit your income. — Chuck Yeager

 

[cranky108]

FYI, in the US, flood insurance is only sold to the public only by the government. It's government insurance, and it's not very good.

Maybe it's not that we don't want to, but that we are being told a different story than what is actually happening. Lying B#######.
And because there is little risk, or punishment for the lying to the public.

Or here's a thought, we might be paying too much for some of these positions, that maybe less educated people could do a better job (or not).

Also in other countries, they boil their water before drinking it.

 

[dik]

We have a problem here... the government has allowed the farmers to fill in the potholes (large ponds) and to install sub-surface drains... this increases the peak flow and reduces the time of concentration... flooding of the Red River is nearly an annual occurrence.

Dik

 

[Sparweb]

Cranky,
I am sure you know very well that boiling water does not change its lead content.
So I assume that the only reason for you to even mention boiling one's water is that you have become quite agitated by the off-topic direction of this thread. It is probably time to return to the original topic and drop the rest, I think.
I hope you agree.

STF

 

[dik]

SparWeb... I think boiling increases the concentration a tad...

Dik

 

[Sparweb]

Thanks dik,


STF

 

[cranky108]

My point is people, need and should, do more for themselves, and not expect someone else to look out for their best interest.

That said, it might be difficult for a person to have any information about their city water source. So a higher level of trust is expected of the water provider. But also, water providers should be sending out reports on the water quality (the corporation that provided the water where I grew up did).

It is also my position that we don't hold our public officials accountable enough.

Just a thought, but home lead tests are available, usually in the hardware store next to the radon tests. And maybe more people should be more interested in the water quality in their tap.
Even if 1% of people were interested enough, this might have been seen sooner.