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Flint Municipal water 89

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moon161

moon161

Mechanical
Dec 15, 2007
1,181
So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.



There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?
 
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We can only hope...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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Some good news:

Flint’s water system meets state, federal standards for 3rd year


And that while this is good news with respect to the source of Flint's water, as noted in the item above, there's still work to be done to replace the remaining lead service pipes going into people's homes and businesses, but it's reported that this could be completed by the end of the year.

Now they have to get to work in Newark.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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Not sure how much this is going to help, but the EPA, in response to the Flint water crisis, has increased the requirements for the testing for lead in municipal water supplies, but they can keep their lead pipes, as long as the lead levels in the water itself remains below the limits.

Lead Pipes Are Safe From The EPA’s New Drinking Water Rule

The regulation that was too weak to stop the Flint water crisis is getting some mild improvements — but lead pipes can stay.






John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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Closely related issue, in Canada.
Here's some background on the tests and report:
Toronto Star

For those interested in the rigour of the sampling process, there isn't any. They targeted areas where the bad water might be found. Statements such as "1/3 of houses tested had lead above the safety guideline"... well that's because they didn't test rural locations or newly-built houses. The details of the report are behind a pay-wall.

That said, it's still disturbing that there really are so many cities that haven't either removed their lead pipes or started a monitoring program. Calgary has published on its website data that shows that the city knows where most of these remaining service pipes are, and if homeowners are concerned, the city will test the water every year. If over the limit, the city will replace the lines (on the city side of the property line, tho). So this system is voluntary, but since the city also sends out letters notifying homeowners of the risk, people would have to be pretty stupid (or already affected by the lead [sorry bad joke]) not to start testing at least. Not all cities have been as diligent, I am disappointed to learn.

 
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Let's hope the money is spent where it was originally intended, to update the water supply piping system:

Audit finds $20 million balance in Flint Water Fund


John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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More news about what happened, or I should say, what DIDN'T happen:

Firm knew about lead in Flint’s water but didn’t warn public, emails show


John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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A completely honest firm would have been fired immediately.
A firm that was vying to get a contract where they could fix the problem would not want to get fired.
Catch-22.
 
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Too bad we can't see the emails in context; it's unclear whether they actually tested the water or only went by the fact that the new water supply was going to corrode the lead pipes.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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If people in a town cared enough about their water, it would only take a sampling of about 100 home's tap water to demonstrate all pollutants in the town's water supply. The cost of each water test is not prohibitive, and hundreds of pollutants can be determined. A mapping of the occurrences of specific pollutants can nail down the location of problematic distribution piping . Just the threat of a towns' people taking into their own hands the determination of the extent of pollution would cause the officials to be more transparent.

I recall a similar situation that occurred at the NJ shore in the 1980's. Excessive pollution of the water at the beaches due to runoff from inadequate wastewater treatment plants was being "pooh-poohed" by all officials. But then a coalition of physicians announced they would joitly take samples and provide an independent analysis of the threat, ans the 180 degree turnafround by the officials was so fast that I think they got whiplash.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
 
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More problems with accounting for where the money went that was supposedly spent to help Flint recover from the water crisis:

Where's the money? Accounting for $389 million from Flint water crisis is hazy


John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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The US Supreme Court is allowing lawsuits agasint the city and state to move forward:

U.S. Supreme Court lets Flint, Michigan residents sue over water contamination


John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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With respect to my last post concerning the courts allowing the residents of Flint to sue over the water crisis, I also saw this article published within 20 minutes of the one above. However, the headline gives the reader a totally different impression of what's happening. While the headline is technically correct, it's very misleading, particularly when you continue reading the article as you have to get down to the last line before the actual 'news' is found. Up until then, virtually every word written had added nothing in the way of making it clear what the courts decision actually was or what it meant.

Supreme Court won't take case prompted by Flint water crisis

The Supreme Court has declined to take a case stemming from the 2014 water crisis in Flint, Michigan


This is terrible journalism, as it appears that the intention was to NOT provide the reader with an account of what actually happened, but yet doing so in a way that could later be defended as being accurate, if EVERY word had been read. When you see something like this, you can't help but ask what the editorial intent of this media outlet was and WHO it is that they consider as their TRUE audience.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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John,

I see your point, and would agree if it were an essay that required 20 minutes to read. But the ABC story is 7 sentences long. They opened with what happened , explained why the case was there, and then stated the effect. I think it's a stretch to call the organization an editorial manipulation aimed at skewing our perception of what happened. The only thing I could think of accusing them of is wording the headline in such a way that they get more readers. Saying that the Supreme Court won't take a case about Flint is more likely to make me wonder why and read about it than an article who's headline simply tells me that they can move forward.

I'm curious, though - based on the organization of the story, what do you think the editorial intent is and who do you think they consider to be their true audience?
 
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The word 'obfuscation' comes to mind. As for why, I suspect that someone is trying to stay on the 'good side' of certain individuals and/or organizations which have power and influence in the state.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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Here's an even better article:

Supreme Court allows lawsuit against Flint city officials to advance


I learn everything I need to know in the first two sentences.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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The AP article is also factually incorrect. SCOTUS rejected two appeals by the government concerning appeals in the lower court, and not the lawsuit, per se, since no lawsuit has yet been filed in SCOTUS.


Oddly, both ABC and AP are rated center or center-left, so it's completely unclear why the article is written as it was, since the same 7 sentences could have conveyed the same court case information as the Reuters, since the Reuters article conveyed its SCOTUS-related information in 3 sentences. Perhaps this is the "red" deep state at work at AP.

Reuters said:
The justices turned away two appeals by the city and the state and local officials of a lower court ruling that allowed the lawsuit to move forward. The lower court rejected a demand for immunity by the officials, finding that they violated the residents’ right to “bodily integrity” under the U.S. Constitution by providing the tainted water after switching water sources in a cost-cutting move in 2014.

The justices’ action comes as similar class-action cases are currently on appeal at the Cincinnati, Ohio-based 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.
Click to expand...

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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I'd say it's simple economics rather than intentional obfuscation. If that was the goal, they failed miserably. They should have added in at least 4 or 5 paragraphs summarizing the City's legal arguments and reports of how they did their best. Then slip in the fact that they're still getting sued at the very end with no mention of the plaintiff(s) side. Instead, they summed it up in one of the shortest and most succinct articles I've seen in a while. Maybe not twitter short, but even the most scatter brained of my millennial brethren should be able to ride it out through 7 sentences.

If you learn all you need to just by reading the headline or the first two sentences, you're not going to stick around. That's fine if you're paying a subscription, but most of these sites rely on advertising dollars. The longer you're on there, the more money they get for the ads. It may lead to difficult questions sometimes - and kudos to you and anyone else who reasonably and logically questions what they hear or read(yes, I'm contrasting against the "Fake News!" crowd) - but such is the world we live in and I don't see the financial model of online news outlets changing anytime soon. Not enough people recognize the cost of free.
 
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OK, here are the seven sentences. Please indicate at what point did the reader learn the relevant information?

WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court has declined to take a case stemming from the 2014 water crisis in Flint, Michigan.

Approximately 25,000 people have sued over the crisis, in which a change in the source of the city's water resulted in lead contamination.

The case the justices turned away without comment Tuesday involves a lawsuit against the city and water regulators, most of whom were responsible for making sure federal clean water laws were followed. The lawsuit claims the officials failed to protect residents from a foreseeable risk of harm from exposure to lead. The lawsuit and others like it claim that the public has a constitutional right to “bodily integrity” that was violated.

The city and officials have argued they should be immune from being sued, but lower courts have disagreed.

The lawsuit and others like it are expected to go forward in lower courts.

Please explain how this should not be seen as an example of 'obfuscation'? The first hint (I emphasis the word 'hint') at what the result of the court's action were doesn't come until the end of the sixth sentence and even then it's vague at best. Up until this point, the article could have just as well have been reporting that the residents of Flint had lost their last hope for recovering their loses. And even the final sentence, where the 'plot' is finally revealed, it's still a very soft explanation of what happened.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, for what they're worth.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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