Flint Municipal water 89

[moon161]

So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/14/e...nation-for-months-without-telling-the-public/

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/15874

There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?

 

[JohnRBaker]

Yes,I am familiar with David Stockman. He soured on Reaganonomics (which was not "trickle-down") primarily because the deficits increased.

That does not seem to jive with Stockman's own words, as quoted in the item below (I'll leave the exercise of finding those quotes to the reader but doing a 'Find' for "trickle" will help immensely):

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1981/12/the-education-of-david-stockman/305760/

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[IRstuff]

just to save everyone some work:

"Yet he was conceding what the liberal Keynesian critics had argued from the outset—the supply-side theory was not a new economic theory at all but only new language and argument to conceal a hoary old Republican doctrine: give the tax cuts to the top brackets, the wealthiest individuals and largest enterprises, and let the good effects "trickle down" through the economy to reach everyone else. Yes, Stockman conceded, when one stripped away the new rhetoric emphasizing across-the-board cuts, the supply-side theory was really new clothes for the unpopular doctrine of the old Republican orthodoxy. "It's kind of hard to sell 'trickle down,'" he explained, "so the supply-side formula was the only way to get a tax policy that was really 'trickle down.' Supply-side is 'trickle-down' theory."

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
faq731-376 forum1529

 

[JohnRBaker]

And where were you in the '70's during Professor Alexander's lectures in Econ 101 and 102?

Actually it was the 60's when I took Econ 101 and 102 at 'da Tech', and yes, one of the Alexander brothers (it was P. V. I think) taught those classes. We loved it when he would work out something with a slide-rule and get results to 4 decimal places.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[bimr]

Getting back to fact finding:

The state of Michigan is "fundamentally accountable" for Flint's lead-contaminated water crisis because of decisions made by its environmental regulators and state-appointed emergency managers who controlled the city, an investigatory task force concluded Wednesday (3/23/16) in a withering report.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-michigan-water-idUSKCN0WP25I

 

[SwinnyGG]

Oh, look at this little gem:

"There were failures on all levels of government, including the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, a report from the task force said"

 

[bimr]

Leaving out portions of the text is called quoting out of context isn't it? The practice of quoting out of context (sometimes referred to as "contextomy" and quote mining), is an informal fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.

Here is the entire paragraph:

"There were failures on all levels of government, including the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, a report from the task force said. However, the report highlighted failures of state agencies, especially the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (MDEQ), and said the state was "fundamentally accountable" for what happened."


Finding #1 from the actual report says it all:

MDEQ bears primary responsibility for the water contamination in Flint.

Merriam Webster's definition of primary:

1: most important

2: most basic or essential

3: happening or coming first

 

[boo1]

I would have thought the city water department would be have the primary responsibility.
Looks like it cost three jobs at MDEQ and one at the EPA so far.

 

[SwinnyGG]

I guess I'm the only one who's not allowed to quote out of context.

You're celebrating a report that states the the argument I've made continually from the start of this thread is accurate, and that your perception is wrong.. Thank you.

 

[bimr]

Regarding "I would have thought the city water department would be have the primary responsibility.
Looks like it cost three jobs at MDEQ and one at the EPA so far."

The City of Flint was also excoriated. See Page 44 of the report.

However, the MDEQ is also responsible for oversight of Flint. Example: Flint is required to have an water treatment plant operator certified by MDEQ and Flint did not.

"The DEQ has primary enforcement authority in Michigan for the Federal Safe Drinking Water Act under the legislative authority of the Michigan Safe Drinking Water Act. As such, the division has regulatory oversight for all public water supplies, including approximately 1,500 community water supplies and 10,000 noncommunity water supplies. The program regulates the water well drilling industry. Michigan has nearly (1.12 million) households served by private wells, with approximately 15,000 domestic wells drilled each year. The DEQ also investigates drinking water well contamination, and oversees remedial activities at sites of groundwater contamination affecting drinking water wells."

http://www.michigan.gov/deq/0,4561,7-135-3313_3675...

Somebody from the Flint may eventually be criminally charged as they signed off on certifications that the water was safe.

 

[QualityTime]

I doubt anyone will be charged. Lead and copper limits are exceeded all over the country. There is no real push to enforce it

 

[urgross]

Think all of you are missing the history of "trickle down" started with Will Rogers and "trickle up". People were already tired of being "trickled on" in the 20's and 30's. Didn't work then either, as the comedian noted. Took an ass-hat to revive it.

 

[boo1]

bimr 27 Jan 16 19:59 post stated;

"Don't forget the operator of the water treatment plant. It is required by law to have a person in responsible charge of a water treatment plant. The operator is not just responsible for the spirit of the law. The operator is the hands on person in charge. The operator accepts responsibility by signing and certifying documents."

????

 

[JohnRBaker]

Relief and support can sometimes come from the most unexpected places:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/prisons-water-drive-flint_us_56f581b9e4b0143a9b4826d8

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[bimr]

In response to boo1, and note that this is a highly regulated industry:

"To demonstrate proper operation, treatment plant operators must fill out Monthly Operation Reports (MOR) reporting these operational parameters."

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-wd-water-fos-tsu-SuggestedPractices_227380_7.pdf

Here is the report from the Flint operator:

https://www.cityofflint.com/wp-content/uploads/June-2015-MOR.pdf

If you review the report, you will observe the pH is too low, which is causing the corrosion. The report was submitted to the MDEQ as required, but it does not appear that anyone at the MDEQ looked at the report.

"HOW TO BE CERTIFIED (Drinking Water Operator):

2. Application Review: We will review your application to make sure you have the required operating experience and education requirements for the certification(s) you are applying for."

http://www.michigan.gov/deq/0,4561,7-135-3308_3333_4171-10155--,00.html

But then, the MDEQ issued a license to the Flint water treatment plant operator despite a lack of experience.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael...cmpt:primary,VSRPnm:true,authType:NAME_SEARCH

 

[SwinnyGG]

Serious question warning.

You keep saying 'despite a lack of experience'

What position, and what length of time, in your opinion, would constitute the minimum level of experience?

 

[boo1]

Looks like Flint also started adding 2.5 milligrams phosphate per liter to the water.

 

[SwinnyGG]

Also, regarding pH:

From the report cited above, (tap) pH for that month had a high of 7.76 and a low of 7.40, with an average value of 7.61.

So, what *should* those pH values have shown?

EPA guidelines reccomend a pH between 6.5 and 8.5. You say that the tested values are not high enough, but they appear to me (a non-drinking-water-plant-operator) to be already high-of-center on the scale.

 

[bimr]

It is not my "opinion", it is the law in Michigan. Regarding experience:

"at least 3 years of operating experience of which 1 year is in an F-2 system or higher.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-ess-otu-dw-Requirements_257401_7.pdf

Since the operator has not worked in another facility and since Flint was not operating their water treatment plant, one would have to wonder how this person (operator) obtained the hands on operating experience. His linkedin resume says he works in the lab. There is also a requirement that there should be multiple operators with licenses. Don't know if anyone else is licensed.


3 years experience of "hands on" experience is typical. Most states do not allow you to get a license without actually working in a water treatment plant.

Here is a typical requirement from IL:

The applicant has at least three years of study, training and responsible experience in water supply operation or management of a Class A facility that is acceptable to the Agency.

http://www.ipcb.state.il.us/documents/dsweb/Get/Document-83981

 

[hokie66]

I would like an answer about the pH as well. If this were my swimming pool, I would consider those readings perfect. But I don't know about the pH which should come from the water plant.

 

[bimr]

The Langelier Index is an approximate indicator of the degree of saturation of calcium carbonate in water. It is calculated using the pH, alkalinity, calcium concentration, total dissolved solids, and water temperature of a water sample collected at the tap.

Basically, the Langelier Index will tell you whether the water is corrosive or scaling. You want a water that is scale forming and non corrosive

Here is an online calculator:

http://www.lenntech.com/calculators/langelier/index/langelier.htm

For June 5, 2015 from the operators data, page 5 for tap water:

https://www.cityofflint.com/wp-content/uploads/June-2015-MOR.pdf

Results: Slightly scale forming and corrosive.

On June 5, the pH should have been at least 8.3 units instead of 7.55

Plug some of the numbers from the operator's data into the calculator and prove it yourself. In a few minutes, you can see that the operator did not know what he was doing. The operator is mistakenly lowering the pH to a corrosive pH after the lime softening process where a higher pH is used to precipitate the hardness.