"For the good of the company" 15

[Guest0527211403]

Hi All,

Here's my situation:
I'm a few months in at a new job. When I started here, the boss hinted that from time to time, I'd be asked to work on bids and proposals to bring in new work. This proposal work is not "billed" time, and so would be outside of the 40 regular hours that I'm assigned to projects. I have no problem with that. A month or so into the job, I received a bid package started by one of my coworkers and was asked to edit it and prepare it for submission. The grammar and language in the bid were lacking, so I cleaned it up, made it look like a professional document and submitted it.

The boss must have been impressed with my work, as he then told me that I'd have a bigger role in bid preparation from then on. I didn't think much of it at first and just went back to my regular design duties.

A few weeks ago, we received a new RFP which is much larger than anything the company has ever bid on. Moreover, it's in a new field where our company has never worked. It was put on me to organize the proposal writing effort from start to finish, including using resources within the company to develop the concept and do the background research.

The projects we are working on (for which we are paid) are taking us well past 40 hours per week. Adding this proposal would effectively mean adding 15-20 hours to a few team members' weekly schedules. It has been made perfectly clear by upper management that our "paid-for" project schedules should not be impacted, and that this proposal will "make or break" the company, so it should also be given our full attention.

Today I was chewed out for the fact that the team did not do as much work as they should have (on the proposal) over the weekend. I was told that it's my job to motivate the team to come in and work for free (recall that I've only been here a few months). When I ask how I can ask this of people with families, I'm told that it's "for the good of the company", and that people should be more than willing to work for free in order to ensure that they have a job in the future.

I'm curious to know how some of you have dealt with a situation like this in the past. I'm burning the candle at both ends right now, and my nerves are shot. This morning's roasting (of me) almost had me packing up my stuff and leaving, but I took a walk around the building, put my head down and got back to work. I'm willing to "suck it up", but I'd hate to see the lining of my stomach (if I even have one) in a few years if this keeps up. Words of wisdom from E-T members have gotten me through a number of pickles in the past, so I'm hoping that you'll be able to spare a little more of that magic.

 

[SomptingGuy]

If your company offers free quotes, their cost should be factored in elsewhere.

- Steve

 

[corus]

It is common practice to include in the estimate for the job, the cost of actually estimating the job and time is set aside for that task and is recovered by the company in the final bill.

Why you should work for free seems strange to me as I thought slavery had been abolished some time ago. You must work in some remote country where 21st century standards of civilisation haven't yet been reached.

As for being 'professional'; I've known professional engineers who work on contract and charge for every minute of their time... bless their little cotton socks.. and ferraris.

corus

 

[patprimmer]

We all do some work for free, the problem starts when it becomes expected, and abused.

If the company demands ALL time on ALL proposals is done by their staff for free, they have nothing to loose and most likely will quote on any and everything as it is no loss to them. They have to share at least some of the costs so that you know they are not spending yours frivolously.



Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[MedicineEng]

My experience:
In all my jobs sometimes I did some overtime. In my previous job, it was common to put around 45/50 hours per week. I never complained because I felt that the company was fair to me in terms of salary and benefits.

In my current job, since it is more volatile in terms of workload, I have weeks where I make 40 hours and others where I make 60 and some Saturdays. Right now we are moving our warehouse and being this under my management, I will work at least the next 4 Saturdays in a row.

Again, I don't complaint because the company has been fair to me. This year I received a 4 month's salary bonus, which covered (in my oppinion) the overtime, non-office hours availability and other hassles. Of course, in the day that I feel the company is no longer fair to me, my attitude most probably will change.

 

[PEDARRIN2]

My comment, "That counterbalances the times when work is slow and you may not have 40 hours worth of work but get paid for 40 hours." was from experience - maybe unusual, but it happened.

I have worked for companies that had salaried engineers and when workload was high - they put in 50-60 hours of work per week and and when workload was light - they were in the office 40 hours per week, but they didn't put in 40 hours worth of work. There was a lot of cleaning the cubical, putting away files, etc. - nothing project related.

Hourly people had to have something to charge their time to - even it was just company overhead - so inactivity was tracked more directly with hourly, but not the salaried. That is one of the perceived benefits of salaried over hourly - you can mask/hide periods of inactivity for awhile.

 

[moltenmetal]

zdas04, I appreciate your story. My own epiphany came when I was cut down to 4 days per week as a means for the company to save money. I went from working 60-70 hour weeks trying to help them obtain more business and save my job, to working 32 and being paid 90% of my salary (half of the "day off" was paid for by a government work-share program). The key benefit of the work-share program was that I had a whole day off each week to devote to finding a job where my skills and abilities were properly recognized, rather than trying to prop up a marginal business. They were offering me NO upside for my extra work whatsoever.

justkeepgiviner: your boss has an unrealistic and unachieveable billability (utilization) target. They need to get over themselves and find a real business model, rather than exploiting their employees' sense of duty and professionalism in this way.

If what they want you to do is to work extra for future benefit, have them spell out the future benefit first. Are they offering you a share of the profit? An ownership position, so you can share in the profit as a share-holder? Time off in slow periods?

Be aware that exploitative employers are the first to lay people off in slow periods.

If the only compensation is potential brownie points, or keeping your job, I'd politely say no, thank you. Stick to your 40 hours.

Volunteering for a profitable company is a waste of time. There are many opportunities for you to volunteer your time in the community where it will be of true benefit- choose one of those instead.

Volunteering for a non-profitable company is an even bigger waste of time.

Offering your time and effort as "sweat equity" toward a pre-negotiated future financial benefit from your employer is a business investment. In the right organization, it can be a very lucrative one indeed.

 

[TenPenny]

I find this a very strange operating method. Time spent preparing bids is part of 'overhead', and if the company somehow expects this all to be done as charity work, they should expect the quality of the effort to reflect what they've paid for it.

I have never heard of a company expecting all bids to be preparted 'off the clock'. You certainly can't bill it to an existing customer, but the whole point is that your gross profit on a job is expected to cover the costs incurred in bidding and getting the job, plus a chunk of the bids prepared and lost.

 

[TenPenny]

Peddarin2 wrote: "I have worked for companies that had salaried engineers and when workload was high - they put in 50-60 hours of work per week and and when workload was light - they were in the office 40 hours per week, but they didn't put in 40 hours worth of work. There was a lot of cleaning the cubical, putting away files, etc. - nothing project related."

So, in busy times, you got to spend 50 - 60 hours per week at the office, and got paid for 40. In slow times, you got to spend 40 hours per week at the office and get paid for 40. Your family time gets short changed 10-20 hours per week in busy times, but in return, during slow times, it gets...what exactly?

Doesn't sound like a win-win situation, sounds like a win-tie situation. In busy times, the company wins; in slow times, you don't win.

 

[s0eebuch]

Do you have to be in the office to get the RPF done? Usually when working overtime or weekends, I'm free to get the task done whereever (home, library, office, park, whatever). I don't mind it when I'm free to work in other environments.

For it to be expected - that does seem unreasonable. In my company, we reguarly respond to RFPs (request for proposals) and that time is charged to overhead. We're all salaried so yes - we can usually hide time in various larger projects, within reason.

And yes, when we're slow we don't always put in 40 hours in the office. Sometimes things come up and we are expected to manage our time as most of us are "professionals". However, it is not unusual to have the office almost fully staffed on Saturday when we're swamped.

If you're busy, you put in the time. If you're not, enjoy it while you can.

 

[vc66]

Doesn't sound like a win-win situation, sounds like a win-tie situation. In busy times, the company wins; in slow times, you don't win.

Sounds eerily similar to the laws of thermodynamics.

V

 

[ColonelSanders83]

I have been working in industry for two years and I have a couple of comments.

1) I have never been able to work less than 40 hours a week on a salaried position, but I was always expected to work more when necessary. Outright theft of my time, with no reciprocation. Never work for free, if you don't have the self-respect to stand up for yourself and emphasize your time is very valuable to you no one else will.

2) I would inform management that if they expect me to be a salesman and devote my time free to doing bids then I want a contract rewritten to include a % commission on each bid that I successfully win (on top of the standard salaried engineering duties, make sure to keep raises compartmentalized as well). This has a number of positive benefits, management only has to pay if you succeed, you will feel much more motivated to produce, and you will make damn sure the quote is the best possible quality. Turn the situation into a win win for both parties. The only catch is you need to be firm with what you want and not take no for an answer.

 

[KENAT]

Peddarin2, I don't get it. Whether you're doing complex calculations or sweeping the floors or anything in between you're working for them. It would be one thing if when the load was light they let you come in late or go home early or work half days Friday or the like. However, they're still expecting you to be in the office for 40, which is your basic week.

Then when they're busy they expect well over 40. Like Ten Penny says, the company is getting a lot more out of it.

I don't get this attitude that only directly billable hours count toward your 40. Any work related task, even if not billable, counts toward your 40. Heck in most reasonable places you'd probably get to include a few toilet breaks and trips to the coffee machine etc. in your 40. This gap between billable and 40 is part of overhead and should be accounted for somehow.

ajack, while I'm sure we'd all like to have a boss we could go and say something like that to, sadly that's not always realistic. Obviously you can't know for sure till you try, but there are many bosses with whome this would get you on their bad list. Heck, I know someone who got threatened with being fired when they told their management that their massively increased work load (went from doing the work of 1 to the work of 3 or 4 plus picking up the slack of another worker) was causing them health issues. The very fact the OP's manager already berated him for not working every hour God sent implies pretty strongly to me that he's not going to take your approach. I'm guessing he won't take my suggestion well either but I'd guess slightly less badly.

As if it needed saying again, the OP should dust of his resume and start looking. Easier said than done in this climate when working 40+ hours but your current place aint smelling of roses.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[btrueblood]

"I do think the idea of saying to your boss lets meet up on Saturday at 5.30 am is a stupid one, who is going to win from this? "

Both of you, and the company. You win by making your boss see the effort you are putting forth for the "good of the company". He wins by being there as moral support for his overworked employee, and (possibly, if he's at all competent as a manager/businessperson) by adding his valuable input on details of the proposal. The company wins by (hopefully) winning the job due to the work put in.

"This will either get his back up and you will be seen in a bad light, when you should be seen as a star of the company for doing what you are doing or he will say fine lets start at 5.30 and put in a 14 hour day to get on top of this. What good can come from this?"

Fine, his back is up - he'll get over it, or modify his behavior appropriately. My point is, he should be there when his troops are, if for moral support only. At least a token appearance must be made, to show that he's willing to make a sacrifice in similar kind to his employees. That's the mark of a good leader. All too few of those in business these days, it seems.

 

[ScottyUK]

ajack,

Every time I read your posts I grow more certain that you are unable to see the perspective of an employee with no stake in the company. Employees are hired labour who give a number of hours of their time to work for a company in return for an amount of compensation. You can't judge them by the same set of criteria you judge an owner or partner, but you seem to expect that level of commitment from employees. You can *buy* extra time, or more employees, but you can't expect people who you pay for 40 hours of their time to unilaterally donate an extra 10 or 20 hours for free. As an owner you have an obvious incentive to work until your fingers bleed: if the company succeeds then you make money, and equally if it fails then maybe you lose everything you've staked in the venture. It's a very different motivator to a monthly pay packet.


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[PEDARRIN2]

I never understood the salary thing either - working more hours but paid the same - then not allowed to take off when things were slow.

Maybe that is why I have never been salaried.

I like getting paid for the hours I work.

 

[ykee]

I'm not sure what or how your company works, but it strikese me that something funny is going on.

If this proposal is going to make or break the company, why isn't management taking care of ensuring it gets done? Instead they have delegated this responsibility to someone who has only been there a few months.

You also mention that this is a significant departure from your companies typical line of work, again, why isn't management driving this process, since it is obviously not business as usual.

Is someone setting you up to be the fall guy? Do you really want to work for a company where the management can't be bothered to spearhead the pursuit of a new line of business that will make or break the company?

 

[DarrellThomasNV]

Here's another point of view:

This is an opportunity. You've only been there a few months and they have already trusted you with a pretty big proposal? Bravo! Trust me, you'd rather be in this situation than the guy in the corner that does his 50 and they never ask anything more of him. There an old axiom: "A great job only gets rewarded with more work."

- Are you putting in more than you get paid? Yes.
- Are you learning how to write good proposals? Yes. Hmmm... than just may come in handy in the future!
- Have your supervisors established trust in you? Yes.
- Will you reputation and credibility be enhanced? Yes.
- Will they cut you into the company? Who knows. You should ask. (over a beer)

It's only a 30 man team right now. They are trying to grow. They will quickly screening for the movers-and-shakers. Be a part of the solution. It sounds like you are. Keep developing the proposal writing skills. Give it six months. Prove it to yourself, show them you bring in more (MUCH MORE) than your 40-billable, with the proposal writing (keep records) and they will beg you not to walk. Then you need to ask for a stake of ownership.

(this is of course... only if you want to drive in that direction... If you just want to work 40 and be left alone...well do that instead. In any case. Give it 6 months. see where it goes. At a minimum, you'll have a new-found skill that will come in handy later in life.

 

[MedicineEng]

Darrell:

I think your advice is an excellent one. In all my jobs, I never refused a project, even if it was not exactly in my skill set by the time. This only made me better and more attractive to the market. I am always eager to do different things in order to open my eyes to other realities.
But again, as I said in my previous post, I had the luck that all the companies that I worked for were fair enough to see my effort and reward it accordingly.

Something says to me that this is not exactly the case of the OP.
Either way, who knows if this tender will not open him the doors of another better place to work?

 

[apsix]

"I'm burning the candle at both ends right now, and my nerves are shot."

That's the situation now, and management expect more.
It's not worth the risk to physical and mental health.

 

[SNORGY]

Where I work there is one guy I can think of who always puts in long hours and does lots of things for the good of the company.

He had a brain anyeurism last week and is in the hospital today; at last report, he was re-training himself how to eat with a fork.

Presumably, Management all wish him a speedy recovery...for the good of the company.

Some sacrifices aren't worth making, in my mind. Sorry...the whole "...for the good of the company..." argument doesn't wash with me, under any circumstances.

Regards,

SNORGY.