Fox News Sunday Comments Re: Minneapolis Bridge Failure 10

[JeffLester]

All,

Watching Foxs News Sunday with Mike Wallace this morning, I found myself bothered by comments made by two guests. In essence, they stated the bridge failure was an engineering problem. Without benefit of investigation, they knew what the problem was. Amazing.

What bothered me more was their simplistic judgement of what I'm sure is not a simple problem. I work in an environment, as many of you I'm sure, where the technical judgement of an engineer is pitted against the economic realities of business. Risk management has become a legitimate vocation for some. Although I believe this is not a bad thing necessarily, it bothers me that people with a bigger voice than mine are more interested in being quoted than being correct.

I don't believe it was any one thing that brought the Minneapolis bridge down. It was most likely a combination of things, unfortunately for those who died or were hurt that day.

Unfortunately for engineers and our profession, two more insults went unanswered. I apologize for this rant, but I've heard these types of comments all to often.

Stepping off the soapbox now...

Jeff Lester, P.E.

 

[sms]

All of human existance is an engineering problem. That is why I enjoy being an engineer! ;-)

Just because it was a combination of things, and just because there was a risk reward balance achieved does not make it any less of an engineering problem.

I guess I am not understanding why you think engineers were insulted. Or perhaps I am not fully understanding what was said on the show. Help me out...





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[monkeydog]

Jeff,
Do you realize what you just posted?
"Without benefit of investigation, they knew what the problem was. Amazing."
and then you said
"I don't believe it was any one thing that brought the Minneapolis bridge down. It was most likely a combination of things ..."
And only the comments made by a couple of suits on a news show bother you?

 

[Qshake]

Jeff makes a good point though it may need to be emphasized differently.

Perhaps these two suits were noting that it was an engineering problem (as in design) rather than a maintenance problem.

Either way, it is entirely too early for anyone of remote intelligence to say why the bridge collapsed. As such I believe engineers especially should refrain from making statements.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[casseopeia]

It's a good thing I missed the CNN broadcast. I still haven't recovered from hearing Dr. Baden, a forensic pathologist, expound on his theories of why the bridge collapsed.

I also don't think JeffLester is making a wild prediction that it was a combination of failures that caused the collapse. Thant's how most failures happen. It is rarely a singular event.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[JeffLester]

Monkeydog,

I don't believe I contradicted myself. I stated my "opinion" as such, and not as a statement of fact. What was said this morning, on Fox News Sunday, was stated as fact. If I was unclear, I apologize.

I'll be very clear. I am a mechanical engineer experienced in heavy steel fabrication and pressure equipment design. I work in the petrochemical industry for a large plant. I've run across equipment that "works" when the numbers don't. I've also seen equipment fail when the numbers add up. I don't remember a single case where only one thing was wrong. Quite the contrary, one factor may have been pointed at, but there were others that contributed to the final result.

We've received record rains lately in Texas and many are concerned the increased river flows are eroding our bridge foundations. If we experience a resulting bridge failure, I'd be interested to see who gets blamed. It seems sometimes, the general public pushes for a party to blame. If one is not found, then they are not made whole, or someone didn't do their job to find that party.

To answer your last question, I believe it is sometimes more damaging to let blame go unanswered, than to respond honestly to the charges.

Just my two cents...

Take care and God Bless.

Jeff Lester, P.E.

 

[corus]

It was an engineered structure. It fell down. It was an engineering problem. Seems obvious to me.

corus

 

[debodine]

I agree with waiting for the results of the investigation to identify the causes, but I would like to point out that until we engineers can completely "fool-proof" any design, we will usually have the following causes helping to create "engineering failures".

First, lack of appropriate maintenance can bring down any "wonderfully engineered" creation. This can happen when a government agency decides the taxpayer funds are better used elsewhere, or when a corporation decides that they can afford to lose a few consumers because the "risk management" numbers show it to be profitable.

Second, none of us who work in engineering have ever run across a foreman, mechanic or contruction worker who decided that "...the engineer must have been nuts to put that on the drawing. I already know this will work better...", right?

Third, have any of us ever witnessed the manager who says, "The material the engineer called out is way too expensive, and I have vendor X who says they have the same thing but at half the cost!"

So it may well be a combination of engineering decisions, maintenance neglect, contruction deviations and management oversight. In fact, I personally predict the final analysis will contain at least three of the above four catagories if not all four.

Been there, done watched the idiots ignore design criteria, got the T-shirt that says, "I designed this for Stupid!"

debodine

 

[oldfieldguy]

debodine--

Or a politician who says, "If we spend all that budget money on maintaining bridges, I get nothing. If I build new parks and low-income housing and a new stadium, I get thousands of votes and I get to stay in office..."

old field guy

 

[Comcokid]

Example of oidfieldguy's politician: The so-called "Bridge to Nowhere".

Alaska's Gravina Island (population less than 50) will soon be connected to the megalopolis of Ketchikan (pop. 8,000) by a bridge nearly as long as the Golden Gate and higher than the Brooklyn Bridge. Alaska residents can thank Senator Don Young.

Gavin Island residents will get a bridge to replace a 15 minute ferry ride while more pressing bridge issues may result in more Minneapolis I35 bridge disasters.

 

[debodine]

oldfieldguy and Comcokid: You are both quite correct in the points you made. I was attempting to limit my answers to catagories of failure that might reasonably be found in an NTSB report, but your points will probably be closer to the overall cause, even if the NTSB cites the more immediate causes from my list. Politics trumps all, especially common sense and engineering experience, doesn't it?

debodine

 

[dcasto]

I remeber an administrator in the DOT say that we needed more training (he was responsible for Operator Qualification) because all failures are because of human error. There is no engineering error, no inspection proceedure error, no error because of rainfall, just human error.

I was rolling in the aisle. I'm with JeffLaster, it seems to be there is always more than just 1 thing to make a disaster.

 

[DarthSoilsGuy]

one of the policy items i keep hearing about is how decisions for structural overhauls are replaced with increased inspection. i would not feel comfortable performing inspection after that decision was made. i've done tons of inspections, but the vast majority were during construction when you have leverage. but that has nothing to do with the orig. post.

there is a lot of speculation on this forum in the different threads on this subject. i'll take care of it with this caveot...

Ahem..

If you, your loved one, friend, or acquantice, suffered from this tragedy, please understand that the information on this site is a leisurely forum for anonymous engineering bloggers and may not represent the cause of events or professional opinions. If you belong to the NTSB investigating the bridge collapse, please understand that information on this site is very much used at your own risk.

ok now that is done... feel free to speculate.

And,... yes, it is very different and very ugly when speculation is broadcast on national tv. so if you're out there cable engineers, shame-shame we know your name.

 

[SnTMan]

oldfieldguy, exactly right, nobody gets elected in the long term, so there is no percentage in taking on long term problems. They just get left to fester. Examples are numerous.

Regards,

Mike

 

[csd72]

SnTMan,

That is the one greatest failure of the democratic system (as it stands anyway).

Probably she should make our politicians more accountable for when they dont follow the advice of the relavent expert advisors. Maybe Iraq would not have happened if they did.

debodine,

The problem is that these types of construction changes are not always easy to trace. It is much easier to spot flaws in the engineering design.

csd

 

[SnTMan]

csd72, in the past these long term problems were apparently dealt with by STATESMEN exercising LEADERSHIP, but we haven't had any of those for years and years. We got politicians now...

Mike

 

[bridgebuster]

We haven't had a real president since Ronald Reagan!

With 20 years of Bush-Clinton-Bush, I don't look forward to 20+ years of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton.

 

[DarthSoilsGuy]

BB,

if Jeb Bush beats Hillary in 2012, the hand will beat a flush.

 

[bridgebuster]

If Hillary wins in '08, then Jeb has to run to restore the family honor. Then Chelsea will be old enough to run; then after Chelsea it'll be George P Bush; the cycle will never end.

 

[csd72]

bridgebuster,

Do you think the American public will vote in another bush?

As for your previous post, it brings up an interesting point. I believe there have been as many actors as president as there have been engineers.

Time to get someone in who actually knows how the world works.

csd