Fusing two engines (welding) 3

[DOHC]

Hi,

I'm looking into fusing two exiting engines in to a V8 or V10, currently just seeing if there is a possibly way not that I'll be attempting it right away.
Could welding be strong enough to fuse two engines together practically and safely.

I've got two basic ideas,
All based off aluminium blocks for street use.

take two 4 or 5cyl engines and cut the lower end of the blocks at a 45 or 36 degree angle and weld the top parts together the lower part would need to be made custom for a custom crank shaft.

The other idea is to take two V6 engines and cutting them in two and connecting them in the middle running one crankshaft and set of camshafts.

I've heard and seen pretty big holes welded in engines but I'm still very sceptical that it would be practical for joining two engines.

Can anyone give me some more info on this? or other idea's.
Using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option.

 

[ivymike]

some thoughts (besides "why bother"):
assuming you could attach the parts strongly enough, I suspect you'd have trouble getting the right bearing layout and main/pin diameters. What would you do for main caps? Also, how would you get appropriate concentricity of the bearing bores? Rebore them? What would you use for bearings? connecting rods? crankshaft?

I assume you'd change the firing order/spacing. What would you do for new camshafts?

If you fixed all that, you'd probably find that your coolant/oil flow paths are not appropriate for the new layout..

 

[BrianPetersen]

Welding is not an accurate process. The alignment of a cylinder bore with the crankshaft and everything else, needs to be accurate. How are you proposing to keep all the tolerances correct?

And if you thought welding was suitable for doing that, I betcha there is a whole bunch of stuff you haven't thought of. V-type engines have two con-rods per crank pin (or two crank-pins per "bay" of cylinders). In-line engines don't have crankshafts that are designed to allow for this.

What is your objective at the end of the day? What are you trying to accomplish that couldn't be done by using an existing engine that already has the configuration you want to achieve?

 

[1gibson]

"Using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option."

Not sure what you mean by the term "option" here... But considering what you've said quite literally, how about a VW W8 then? I know they were in Passats, maybe Touregs (sp)?

I recently saw a v8 that was two Hayabusa engines stuck together, was about $27K. Google should help you out.



Are you trying to win a bet?

 

[DOHC]

Well i'm looking in to creating a Honda based engine preferably with V-Tec.

V6 that could be used would be J-Series 60 degree or C-Series 90 degree.

My inline 4 candidate would be K24A (cheap and lots of potential) or G25A inline 5.

Custom crank, and cams are going to be needed and of course firing order.

Main caps would off course need to be custom made in the double inline setup,

For the V6 i was planning to run it standard configuration from Honda just going a custom crank to get it working.

 

[dgallup]

I've heard of a few of the car companies doing this for concept cars. Not sure if they actually ran & if they did if it was ever anything like full throttle. I'm sure they started with raw castings so all the finish machining was done after all the cutting & welding. I think they used either electron beam or laser welding. In short, it was not something you could duplicate for any reasonable cost.

 

[patprimmer]

I think it would eventually work out easier to have a new block designed and built from billet.

Be prepared to spend at least $50,000

Stan Sainty of Sainty Speed Works has done this based on several engines. He makes a big V8 based on a big block Ford layout and makes his own 3 valve heads.

He also makes replacement blocks for antique Lancias (I think it's Lancia) as all the originals tend to fail due to galvanic corrosion in the copper oil galleries cast into the aluminium block.

Regards
Pat
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[BrianPetersen]

What are you proposing to do with that engine that couldn't be done better with a Chevrolet small block crate engine?

Why does it have to be Honda-based?

Why do you need VTEC?

 

[GregLocock]

Joining two V6s end to end is possible and practical, although you're up for some serious design time. The trick is to take the drive off the centre. I'm not sure welding is really the correct process to join the two blocks.



Cheers

Greg Locock


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[tbuelna]

DOHC,

Two I4 or V6 mounted back-to-back as GregLocock suggests would only require an adapter plate, crank coupling, and offset PTO drive at the center. Plus possibly some reverse rotation cams and accessories for one of the engines. But no welding or excessive machining would be needed on the blocks. Lots of welding on a block would result in lots of distortion. And many blocks are cast from materials that cannot be welded.

You could also consider mounting two I4's side-by-side, with an idler gear drive PTO connecting the two. Both engines would rotate in the same direction with an idler in the gear drive.

Good luck,
Terry

 

[HRHtex]

I think the only practical solution is the new block route.
This is becoming almost routine using motorcycle engines.
There is a lot of information on the internet on the Hayabusa V-8.

I suppose there is a distant possibility of bolting two engines together to make a flat-8.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Reinventing the Triumph Stag's V8.

- Steve

 

[ivymike]

not that I'd encourage your proposed endeavor, but here's an example of two V12s connected end-to-end to make a V24. In this case they're nose-to-tail, same rotational direction, with power taken off the rearmost flywheel. It might be a bit large for your Honda, but fits nicely in a giant dump truck.

http://www.archithings.com/cat-c175...2009/10/23/cat-3524b-high-displacement-engine

 

[TheBlacksmith]

Many Detroit Diesel engine were connected (bolted) end to end to make for example, a V-24 out of two v-12s. But htese also had a max rpm of 1800 (synchronous speed for a 60 hz generator) and higher speeds may bring out some harmonics and resonance that could destroy the machine. Come to think of it, the Detroits ran pretty rough.

 

[DOHC]

Thanks for the feedback,

Running the two V6 behind each other as separate engines might be to long although i'm still waiting on definitive block length specs from the J-Series engine.

Why Honda,
Well i'm a huge Honda fan and if I ever do it it will go into my Honda, Sure a Small block chevy could be done but than it isn't a Honda any more and i also like problem solving and projects.

Mugen V8 engines are the expensive (hard to find and way to wide for my application)

The V10 Race engines aren't available and they also will be to costly and wide.

 

[1gibson]

So how about the VW "W" configuration engines? See also the Veyron W16.

 

[evelrod]

In my drag racing days, late 50's early 60's, I got to see a variety of odd combination's. Side by side Pontiac's, end to end SBC,s, four engine/four wheel drive Buick. V8 Pontiac cut to a V4 and a V2...Chebby V8 cut to an I4 and then an I2. Two Chevy II I4's mated side by side for a V8ish combo.

These are engine combos I have actually been present when they were raced...some good, some not so good...they ALL ran well enough, though. I'm pretty sure that none of these combination's made economic sense...who cares?

Doubling up on a Honda? Whatever floats yer boat! Me? I'd have a new block cast up. Most of our rarer vintage engines are being recast...some in Fe, some in Al. Welding is just NOT a good idea if your looking for ease of mfgr/reliability.

I really don't quite grasp the:

Using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option.

You lost me on that.

Oh, one more thing...If you really want to see the "ultimate" engine combination's...ck the "Tractor Pulls".

Rod

 

[DOHC]

well with using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option i meant for example a non Honda engine is not what i indeed to use for example the easiest V12 would be a BMW V12.

I'll take a look in to casting.

 

[evelrod]

Sorry, but I'm having difficulty figuring out what you are trying to accomplish. Using a couple 'cheap' Hondas to throw gobs of $$$ at is, on the face of it, a difficult concept. Why bother?
Picking an existing 12? Well if a BMW is okay, what about a Jag? There are lots of them around and cheap, too. They even bolt up to GM stuff. I'm still not grasping the concept.

To the original question...Welding---NO. Even if possible it would be cost prohibitive to create something reliable.
Sand cast one offs...It can be done. I watched a Fiat DOHC head done from scratch many years ago...LOTS of work involved. At least one off sand cast is not too cost prohibitive (would be for me, perhaps not for you). Never watched a billet block being created...Just a guess on my part...Pat's estimate of $50,000 is just wishful thinking. I'd hold out for a figure closer to $150,000 by the time you get it running.

Rod

 

[BrianGar]

The figures discussed here are possibly laughable depending on the ops profession/skills. I could buy a big block of billet 60xx, do some drawings, a little looking at other billet blocks of the same approx design, bolt it onto my manual bridgeport, pin a drawing up beside the kettle and a week later have just what I need for say 3000euro.

Its all about what you can do, how much time you have, and what your skills are, which, the op never seemed to have mentioned sadly...