Fusing two engines (welding) 3

[DOHC]

Hi,

I'm looking into fusing two exiting engines in to a V8 or V10, currently just seeing if there is a possibly way not that I'll be attempting it right away.
Could welding be strong enough to fuse two engines together practically and safely.

I've got two basic ideas,
All based off aluminium blocks for street use.

take two 4 or 5cyl engines and cut the lower end of the blocks at a 45 or 36 degree angle and weld the top parts together the lower part would need to be made custom for a custom crank shaft.

The other idea is to take two V6 engines and cutting them in two and connecting them in the middle running one crankshaft and set of camshafts.

I've heard and seen pretty big holes welded in engines but I'm still very sceptical that it would be practical for joining two engines.

Can anyone give me some more info on this? or other idea's.
Using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option.

 

[patprimmer]

Brian

I would suggest that if you can make billet aluminium V8 engine blocks for $3000 euro you can make a killing in the Sprint car engine business. I think Dart sells cast aluminium blocks for about $US7000.

Regards
Pat
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[patprimmer]

Brian

Also if DOHC had the skills you suggest he would know better than to ask the question he first posted.

Regards
Pat
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[evelrod]

Ya just gotta love engineers...

Grab a block of 60xx and run off a couple sketches, ck what other guys are doing (THAT should be interesting) and, throw it on the ole Bridgeport...voila! A ready to run V8 block and all for less than $4500. ALL THIS IN A WEEK? Well, at least you won't need to sit through all those boring production meetings every week.

Brian, have you ever thought about running for political office? You would be a "natural"!

Rod

 

[HRHtex]

I think the Saintys will sell you a whole billet engine for about $40,000 to $50,000.

 

[evelrod]

Not to say you cannot just buy an engine, of course you can. The OP wanted to do a V something or other out of POS Hondas. Now, I may be a bit off base here, but I pretty sure that's not an off the shelf item.

Rod

 

[gruntguru]

By the time you create a new engine block from billet or by casting and throw in a custom made crank, how much Honda remains? Pistons, rods and cylinder heads? If you're lucky!

Why not just find a suitable short engine and adapt the Honda heads? The result has just as much Honda in it and might be achievable - just.

Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.

 

[BrianGar]

Pat, post 1, Im sure theres a market, but in Ireland, with our postal costs, maybe not.
I did of course reply to the op in the light that he would be doing this work himself, as he referred to ''Ill'' which to me would point that he intends doing this himself, as paying someone to do this would run up into high cost.
The 3000euro was for materials only. Designing, and analysis would of course be ontop of this cost and time frame, but of course, again, if your doing it yourself, which he seems to want to do, its your own time so 'cost free' as it were.

Post 2, If he knew how to do it he would not ask in the first place I guess, this is true. Which makes me wonder about the ''Ill'' Bit. If I were doing one, Id machine it from billet. If I wanted 3 or more Id cast them. Both of which are far better than welding, or paying someone 50k+ to machine one for you. A good milling hand book a used bridgport and a lot of getting to know the machine is a far better investment in my eyes for this project to be feasible for one guy asking a question on a forum.

Remember, a machinist/billet block maker will machine, not design, so your still stuck with that bit ontop of whatever he wants.

Rod,
, its pretty much that simple in my eyes and would not phase me I have to say. Remember, I said a week machine time, not design.(see above)
As for sitting at meetings, nope, Id be at the mill or drawing board.
What Im saying really is one man is all it takes I feel to do whatever you like as long as your focused.
I got a drawing off a client at 8 in the morn yesterday for 5 engine brackets. Bracket was to hold the alternator, ps pump, and an Idler. I had bracket drawn up by 930, analysis done by 1030, pattern made by 1, part lines marked out by 130, bit of lunch, sand mulled by 230, moulds tamped, gated, and sprued by 4, poured at 6, shook out at 630, in for heat treat directly after to save heating energy, and all spot faced/tapped at 1030. Got them express shipped this morning and they are now on his desk 30hrs later from the time I received his point location drawing. You dont have time for sitting around when its for your yourself your doing it, and not a large company!

As for running for political office! LOL, considering we have possibly the worst government in the world here in Ireland at the minute(Check out Jay Lenos video) I dont think it would be quiet fast paced enough for me and a bit too messy so Ill stay away from that!.

To the op, best of luck with what ever you do, I suggest you look at last months racecar engineer, a 'normal' guy designed/cast a v8 block for two bike heads.

I hope Rod and Pat, that I have not offended you in any way with my post, its just as I see it, and do things. Im either at the mill, designing, testing, or melting every day, and sometimes into the small hours.

Material costs are pretty low considering, If your doing it for someone else, then so be it, you get paid for all your time milling and designing. But, the odd project you do yourself, all you need to spend on is the material. Your free time is 'free' right?

Brian.

 

[thruthefence]

If you need some inspiration of what you CAN accomplish, go here:

http://www.milleroffy.com/index.htm

Harry, Leo, and Fred.

Harry dreams it up, Leo draws it. Fred grinds away everything that doesn't look like say, a sixteen cylinder, double overhead cam, four valves per cylinder, "V" engine.

This back in 1927.

If you ever get a chance to look at a Miller race car up close, take it, Every part has a drawing. Every part is finished to be esthetically pleasing as part of the design. Art Deco masterpieces that dominated the racing world.

 

[thruthefence]

If you have ever machined a large part from "billet" ( I hate that word) you would know all them little holes & stuff move around a bit as the job progresses.

 

[izzmus]

I've long contemplated the feasibility of making a V8 from two existing fours by "simply" milling off the crankcase porting of the blocks, leaving just the water jacketed cylinder area, and attaching those to a new crankcase with extremely long head bolts/studs.

The "only" problem then becomes the cylinder heads, since one would need to be mirrored if you didn't want to have a timing chain or belt at each end, like the Ford SOHC V6.

Nothing insurmountable, of course, but the question gets back to "why bother".

 

[patprimmer]

Sainty recently quoted me $40,000 for a long block engine, BUT it was an obsolete design used engine for which he already has the computer models and has amortised their cost.

That model was a 3 piece design with a crankcase and two separate cylinder blocks.

The new design was a one piece. I believe the change was based on availability of suitable sized billets.

I expect he would want a reasonable fee to redesign the block to suit Honda heads. There is also the issue of cam drives especially for the wrong side head.

In my opinion the only OEM Honda bits eventually used would be heads cams(maybe) valves etc and just maybe pistons but almost certainly not rods as the offset to run two rods on the one journal would be a problem.

The crank would be a full custom design as would all the ancillaries.



Regards
Pat
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[HRHtex]

Sainty engines, as far as I know, being dragrace engines don't have water passages - I don't know if water jackets etc. can be machined in.

Thruthefence - if you don't like the word "billet" - what word would you use? - "Lump?" maybe.

 

[patprimmer]

Sainty also does boat engines.

He does some with water passages milled into the block and heads.

Regards
Pat
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[ivymike]

water jackets can be machined in if you use removable liners, for sure.

 

[thruthefence]

Of course, the word "billet" may be correct in the context of this discussion, ie starting from a large "lump" of aluminum alloy, straight from the foundry to machine shop. My beef, and (it's a personality defect, I suppose)is the application of the word to Door lock knobs, horn buttons, air cleaner covers, accelerator pedals etc.

My apologies if any one was offended by my prejudices and narrow-minded thinking, regarding the word "Billet" when used for marketing purposes.

 

[thruthefence]

Brian, I just re-read your post on your turn time for (what seems) a pretty complex component, you had a pattern made in 2 1/5 hours? And the raw castings (five of them) out of the mold for machining 3 1/2 hrs later? After cooling down, these were machines & inspected and out the door at 10:30? (all on that manual Bridgeport, I assume?)

I have to say your production efficiency is off the chart. You really need to open a consulting firm to teach these skills to the manufacturing world in general. Maybe bring some of these Jobs back from the far east!

 

[patprimmer]

Sainty uses centrifugal cast iron sleeves.

Regards
Pat
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[BrianGar]

That is correct thruthefence. I haven't had a quiet day in 6 months since I started at it proper. No-one is at it this side of the woods. Ill do anything from 1 part upwards. Ill upload a picture of an example in a small while.

B.

 

[BrianGar]

A few pictures Thruthefence, Time taken for this bracket(another type) from taking on point drawing, to finished item part Incl pattern making, 5hrs.

 

[BrianGar]

The pattern, the thinner arm is extending upwards 20mm off the bench face.