Girls in STEM is failing both girls and STEM? 99

[moltenmetal]

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/com...m-culture-is-failing-both-girls-and-stem.html

Read the article, THEN discuss...

Growing up, I increasingly saw my good grades as a trap locking me into a single career: STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics). It felt like a dystopian YA novel, and my high school report card was The Choosing. A’s in math and science? Here are your jeans and sweatshirt.

Well-meaning people lied to me. They said computer science was a great work-from-home career if I wanted children (when in fact a majority of women quit STEM because the culture of poor work-life balance makes it too difficult to raise a family), that STEM careers are secure (actually the industry has frequent layoffs and is very competitive), and more....

 

[IRstuff]

I wouldn't go that far, because I think it's more than a reminder; you are a product of your experiences and influences. Therefore, as you go forward, you need to be all the more mindful of the past, because we extrapolate from the past, and everything we do is potentially tainted by the past, both ours, and society's.

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[CWB1]

It's certainly been a long-standing cliche that smart girls and women "dumb down" to attract men

I dont see that as cliche at all, at least IME most folks' spouse isnt at the same intellectual level and there isnt anything wrong with that at all. Relationships tend to start with physical attraction, a common interest or two, and some decent communication. Decent communication in many instances requires modifying your language to suit the audience, ie "dumbing down," and is often the smart choice.

 

[IRstuff]

"Decent communication in many instances requires modifying your language to suit the audience, ie "dumbing down," and is often the smart choice."

You know that is not the same as pretending to be dumb. In fact, in engineering, the communications trick is to talk to the audience so that they can understand a complex subject, but everyone recognizes that the speaker is an SME on that subject.

What I obviously mean by "dumbing down," is hiding one's expertise or intelligence to the point of allowing the other person to "mansplain" things incorrectly, and not correcting that.

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[CWB1]

Yes, and what's the difference? Its whether someone chooses to remain ignorant and think another is "dumb" or whether they take the time to get to know them. This isnt a means of attracting others, its a means of testing others, and both men and women commonly do exactly that when we meet potential friends and mates. Others are welcome to mansplain all they want during the first encounter or two but they're not likely to get much further than that having proved themselves to be an arrogant fool.

I do the same thing regularly at work. I dress a bit more formally than most however I also wear western boots, a big shiny buckle, and occasionally a bolo tie or big hat. Others also tell me I've got a bit of a southern twang and I speak frankly in common prose. If someone makes the assumption that I'm a dumb hillbilly with little/no effort to get to know me and it has little/no impact on my work or reputation among management then I smile and leave them to it. Others' underestimations have let me win many arguments and provided much comic relief when proven wrong in key meetings.

 

[IRstuff]

I was specifically and narrowly referring to courtship; unless you are also.

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[solid7]

but they're not likely to get much further than that having proved themselves to be an arrogant fool.

Sounds (to me) like more than a few cases that I know of, where seemingly intelligent people had limited attractiveness to others. (and didn't seem to know why)

 

[lacajun]

moltenmetal, the other comment heard often is that my standards are too high. I don't think they are but it isn't my opinion that matters. I'm sure some of the more intelligent men see my problems and don't want to cope with them.

I think it's best to keep all things in proper perspective in life. Extremes are hazardous to one's mental status.

I also think it's best to let each person reveal themselves to me over time. I don't want to pre-judge others and I dislike being primed to dislike someone. Harbored ill will and complaints need to be addressed with the person, not me. That is what adults do. Treat each person as an individual because, well, they are.

I don't know of one intelligent woman that wants a man-child. They may exist but I don't know them.

CWB1, people have laughed and commented about my Southern twang. Some comments have been ugly but, to me, it says more about them than me. I'm glad you don't let that garbage bother you.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[moltenmetal]

Motivation for people of either sex selecting mates is very complex, and many people have no insight into how, or why, their own preferences work the way they do.

By pure luck of the draw, and limited intelligence on my part, I think I picked well, but we're early on- only 19 years in so far, so it could change of course. I've seen plenty of marriages head to the crapper after 20 years. There are days when she isn't so sure she made the right choice...

Some people actually view the application of commonsense or rational thought to matters of the "heart" to be insulting, so they turn their rational minds off completely and let other parts unknown make the decision for them. The results are frequently predictable.

Not wanting to pre-judge others is noble, and more than a little impractical and somewhat futile. It's better to be conscious of your biases than to pretend that they don't exist. While politeness and good manners are always valuable, biases of all sorts are a coping mechanism we use because we no longer live in small groups or villages of about 100 people where we can, actually, know each individual and judge them on the basis of direct knowledge and experience with each of them. If we imagine that we're going to treat every little old lady the same as we would a guy wearing Hells Angels colours, we're fooling ourselves completely. Even trying to do that would be a recipe to be taken advantage of by sociopaths, who are in my experience a not insignificant fraction of the population.

 

[JohnRBaker]

My wife and I are at 50+ years of marriage and going strong. While we're both from a very small town and started going together in high school, we did come from relatively different backgrounds, mostly with respect to how we were treated at home and the relationships that we had with our parents. I had a close and mutually respectful relationship with my parents while my wife's family life was very complicated and confrontational. This situation probably helped to cement our relationship and was key in how we treated our children, both when they were younger and now as adults.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[lacajun]

moltenmetal, I refer to normal people not sociopaths. A personality conflict between two others doesn't necessarily translate to a personality conflict for me, with either of them, even if one is trying to prime me for conflict. Everyone has peccadilloes that can be overlooked but often are not. At this point in life, I expect the childhood schoolyard conflicts to be non-existent but they are not for some.

I am aware of the sociopathy statistics; I've cut those people out of my life, permanently. When I meet people, regardless of how they are dressed, I am not foolish.

Congratulations, JohnRBaker! I admire couples like you and your wife.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[HamburgerHelper]

Sometimes I wonder if the industry is better off just fixing itself than trying to fix problems directly in engineering. It seems like there are a lot of problems that fix themselves once it becomes apparent
that to be profitable or competitive , it is worth changing. Wanting things to change when there is no obvious monetary benefit is usually pointless. If someone can put pen and paper to how much money can be made by being more X or Y, that will probably be how management moves the company. Companies care about money generally above all else.


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If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.f.

 

[IRstuff]

While that's true in a general sense, companies are not, despite various and sundry laws and interpretations, "beings," and are, instead, run and managed by humans, mostly white, mostly male, who, in the best case, are simply unknowingly biased, and the worst case, actively desiring to keep the status quo.

Companies "care" about money to the point that they want to pay as little as possible in wages. Only one car company had made public safety a priority, and was roundly made fun of, and the rest had to be dragged kicking and screaming to add seat belts and crumple zones to cars.

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[HamburgerHelper]

Well then a case hasn't been made well enough that pulling from a larger talent pool is beneficial both from a talent perspective and paying lower wages. I still think that government regulations are necessary but there are so many ways to circumnavigate the intention of the regulation or avoid the spirit of it.

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If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.f.

 

[GregLocock]

IRStuff, the first company to offer seatbelts was Nash, the second was Ford. Your point is?

Here's a professional field where women dominate.

http://www.vmdtoday.com/news/veterinary-medicine-is-a-womans-world

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[JohnRBaker]

...the first company to offer seatbelts was Nash,...

By then Nash was known as American Motors, and in addition to being the first to offer seat-belts, they also introduced self-adjusting brakes, curved side-glass windows, reclining seats and several other features which are now taken for granted.

DISCLAIMER: My first three cars were American Motors products.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[IRstuff]

My point is that even in the case of Ford, the seat belts were options that you had to pay for, and were not standard equipment. I'm guess that was the case for Nash as well.

If you want to swap anecdotal points, SCHOOL BUSES DON't HAVE SEAT BELTS. Our most precious products ride around in cheap boxes on wheels with a label that says that the driver gets to wear a seat belt for "your safety."

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[GregLocock]

Shrugs. If people wanted seatbelts they could pay for them in some cars. Not Volvos, at that time. Your government doesn't mandate seatbelts in schoolbuses. The government in my jurisdiction does. You did have a point didn't you?

Cheers

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[IRstuff]

Yes, the point was that seatbelts were not available as standard equipment until a government mandate, which is exactly what you've echoed. And that companies do not necessarily seek the best product for the market, unless forced to.

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[solid7]

That's because we live in a litigious society that punishes innovation. Government mandates are often necessary to protect manufacturers from a sue-happy populace. I worked for years in R&D, and the lawsuits that result from innovation are staggering. We installed a safety product once on a vehicle that we designed. Within months of release, several of us were called into a deposition to give statements on the product design. It was being contended that by installing the safety feature at the time we did - none of our competition had it - we were implicitly admitting that the product was defective, and/or unsafe, in its previous condition. As a result, we often sat for years, on revolutionary (to the respective field) technology, often waiting for our competition to do it first, and thereby, experience the growing pains. And knowing that he who does it first, often does not do it best.

There are mountainous layers of BS, at all levels, when it comes to corporate intent. Some of it is money driven, some of it is driven by the stupidity of the public. Either way, you'd do well to try to avoid stating black and white example from this line of thinking.

 

[ornerynorsk]

". . . by humans, mostly white, mostly male, who, in the best case, are simply unknowingly biased, . . . "

IRstuff, you do realize that this is not unique to white males !?!? Having traveled somewhat extensively in my career, 21 countries at last count, I can tell you that racial/cultural/you-dress-differently-than-we-do "bias" runs fairly deep in every single culture on the planet. Every one. I've been the butt of jokes and made fun of in more languages than I can keep track of, and you know what, it's perfectly OK because that's just the way people are. I think it is also disingenuous to say that white males are seeking to keep the status quo. The notion that only whites practice bias is just flat out wrong.

I don't know your age or cultural background, I'm in my 50's with a northern and eastern European heritage for the most part, and I can tell you that what I have witnessed over the course of a few decades is a gradual dying off of the old guard "good ole boy" mentality. Yes, it was far worse the generation before mine. There may be pockets of it remaining here and there, but with the upcoming generation, it has largely disappeared. That's just my take, perhaps others have witnessed something different. In spite of all of the "flavor-of-the-day" protest groups, the normalization of gender and race in industry and corporate America has improved in leaps and bounds from where it was.

My 2 cents.



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