Girls in STEM is failing both girls and STEM? 99

[moltenmetal]

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/com...m-culture-is-failing-both-girls-and-stem.html

Read the article, THEN discuss...

Growing up, I increasingly saw my good grades as a trap locking me into a single career: STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics). It felt like a dystopian YA novel, and my high school report card was The Choosing. A’s in math and science? Here are your jeans and sweatshirt.

Well-meaning people lied to me. They said computer science was a great work-from-home career if I wanted children (when in fact a majority of women quit STEM because the culture of poor work-life balance makes it too difficult to raise a family), that STEM careers are secure (actually the industry has frequent layoffs and is very competitive), and more....

 

[IRstuff]

Well, obviously, I was talking about the US, since the oligarchy in China, is all Chinese, almost all male. And yes, there's progress, but the mostly white is still pretty much intact:

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[solid7]

I'd expect that any country with an ethnic majority is going to see all sectors dominated by the same. Again, nothing unique.

I remember in engineering school, there were a large number of inner city kids who got free ride scholarships, on the basis of being underprivileged. OK, that's fine - that's an opportunity. But the graduation rate was less than 10% for those students, at the time. Maybe writing off that percentage of the population doesn't seem like the thing to do, but how do you make an engineer out of someone who doesn't possess the skills to be an engineer? If you haven't grasped certain concepts by a certain age, you're not going to succeed in a field. (or even enter it)

On the other hand, I recently finished a job in the Pacific Northwest, where I saw a very large percentage of Asian parents, who place a large focus on education from an early age. (to the extent even, of being ruthless with regards to the notion of childhood) They were represented above the average, both male and female, in the engineering and tech sectors.

Did STEM fail them, too?

 

[lacajun]

In February, a younger white, male engineer blurted, "What's wrong with a white, male dominated field?" The entire room was silent.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[solid7]

And rightfully so. There is nothing inherently wrong with it at all. Without context, every person in that room should have kept their mouth shut.

Prove that it's white male dominated by something more than just circumstance, and you've got something to talk about. Otherwise, that's about as pointless as screaming about how it's wrong for someone to be rich, if they've gained their wealth honestly.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Another recent example, for what it's worth:

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[solid7]

How in the bloody hell does this have to do with STEM failing girls?

 

[Sparweb]

Can we try to stay on topic, please?
I'd like to ask any members still interested in the off-topic discussions still currently being held but not related to STEM education or career counselling to young women to create new threads on those other subjects they want to discuss.
I am not a moderator. I do not have a stick, just a keyboard and an opinion. Nothing heavy-handed is going to happen. This thread will not be closed. The OP is welcome to continue the discussion on the original topic, which I've been struggling to follow, lately.

STF

 

[lacajun]

I didn't post context but context was abundant.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[solid7]

I didn't post context but context was abundant.

Then I would suggest that you have failed to honor the spirit of this discussion...

 

[JohnRBaker]

Speaking of context...

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...get-3-black-teens_us_5aeb2b4ce4b0c4f1931fc0eb

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Sparweb]

lacajun, you're one of the few still ON topic.

STF

 

[ornerynorsk]

From John's linked article:

Quote
Sharrieff, Skinner and Snell didn’t comment on the controversy to the Washington Post.

However, the students did say they are pleased their project has received positive attention from people all over the country.

“In the STEM field, we are underrepresented,” Sharrieff told the paper while using the acronym for science, technology, engineering and math. “It’s important to be role models for a younger generation who want to be in the STEM field but don’t think they can.”
End Quote

Bravo to these young ladies for taking the high road. It's that kind of professionalism that will take them far. It's so easy to be pulled into the muck and stoop to attacker's levels, but they resisted, and persisted. Good on them!

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[solid7]

So now we're being told that there are groups of people who want to be in STEM fields, but don't think they can?

Who writes this stuff?

Proof?

 

[JohnRBaker]

solid7, did you read the entire article?

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Sparweb]

Hi Solid7,
I was with you, up to there.

Yes. Yes there are MANY young people who find it hard to fulfill their potential. There are lots of forces pushing them back. That's the point of this thread (half of it, anyway). The 3 young women have accomplished something, and been given recognition, and have clearly also got the confidence to go on with life and work despite some offensive distractions. Which is probably the best way to deal with it: don't feed the trolls.

STF

 

[CWB1]

Who writes this stuff?

Its Huffington Post, might as well be discussing an article from the National Enquirer.

 

[solid7]

Hi Solid7,
I was with you, up to there.

Right up to where? Lay down a marker - alot has been said!

Yes. Yes there are MANY young people who find it hard to fulfill their potential. There are lots of forces pushing them back. That's the point of this thread (half of it, anyway). The 3 young women have accomplished something, and been given recognition, and have clearly also got the confidence to go on with life and work despite some offensive distractions. Which is probably the best way to deal with it: don't feed the trolls.

My point was, how is that different than what any of us face? When I was growing up, I was constantly told that I wouldn't amount to anything. People say stuff. Do you listen to it, or do you just keep working?

 

[solid7]

solid7, did you read the entire article?

Yes, I read the whole article. Did I miss the part where they were targeted for being girls? Seems to me that I read that the group singled them out for being black. That wasn't an example of a force holding people back. That's just someone being an a--hole. In fact, if you read the whole article, NASA pulled the plug on the voting, and will base the award on data captured prior to the incident. That was pretty much the opposite of holding them back. It pretty much jettisoned them forward.

The part about being "underrepresented" was a disjointed blurb. Did not fit the context that you'd like it to. Who is underrepresented? Black students, girls, both? (because I'd argue that the piece was in a section entitled, "Black Voices") How are they underrepresented? Because there are sufficient numbers of educated people that fit the same mold as those making the declaration, who are waiting for jobs? Or because of some other arbitrary criteria?

QUALIFY underrepresented. From what perspective? Demographically, Socially, economically, religiously?

Again, oft-topic, and tangential. You've confused a race-based article with a gender-based. That piece was not written from a gender perspective. (even though it may have been coincidental)

And that's the problem with debates, in general - with everything from race to global warming. People like to use unrelated (even if factually accurate) points to make their points, thus bogging down the whole issue. We begin straining at gnats when our main points won't hold on their own. (which is where we are currently) That's a really great way to tire people out, and dismiss the subject matter. This is the point where you begin to do the issue more harm, than good.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Did I miss the part where they were targeted for being girls? Seems to me that I read that the group singled them out for being black. That wasn't an example of a force holding people back.

How can you possibly make a statement like that? Are you suggesting that discrimination and prejudicial attitudes do not play a role in how people see themselves when it comes to breaking stereotypes, irrespective of what those might be? And this is not limited to race and gender either, it can include body size, hair color, physical capability, surnames, etc.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[solid7]

How can you possibly make a statement like that? Are you suggesting that discrimination and prejudicial attitudes do not play a role in how people see themselves when it comes to breaking stereotypes, irrespective of what those might be? And this is not limited to race and gender either, it can include body size, hair color, physical capability, surnames, etc.

ONCE AGAIN... classic example of failing to keep things in proper context, and taking a discussion anywhere you'd like it to go. I just pointed out the whole "convenience" argument, in lieu of real, substantial, merit-based discussion, and you did this, anyway.

You didn't cite any examples of STEM failing girls. I don't have ADHD, John. I am quite clear about what I said, and how it pertains to this discussion. I realize that you may be tempted to take this in a different direction, but how about we don't?

Why don't you start a new topic, and just title it as "General Social Injustice"?

In fact, I just saw an article that you posted, where NASA judiciously interceded on behalf of 3 black teenage girls. Quite to the contrary of failing, that's real, substantial progress. They've stood up, and dismissed even the suggestion of bias, and proven that the gender/race is not a consideration.

So shame on you for attempting to shame me.