Girls in STEM is failing both girls and STEM? 99

[moltenmetal]

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/com...m-culture-is-failing-both-girls-and-stem.html

Read the article, THEN discuss...

Growing up, I increasingly saw my good grades as a trap locking me into a single career: STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics). It felt like a dystopian YA novel, and my high school report card was The Choosing. A’s in math and science? Here are your jeans and sweatshirt.

Well-meaning people lied to me. They said computer science was a great work-from-home career if I wanted children (when in fact a majority of women quit STEM because the culture of poor work-life balance makes it too difficult to raise a family), that STEM careers are secure (actually the industry has frequent layoffs and is very competitive), and more....

 

[ScottyUK]

Hokie66,

In the UK at least, one of the attractions of the teaching profession for females is that the job aligns well with school holidays for kids, and most mothers that I know want to take time off to look after their kids. If women decide to choose a reasonably well-paid career which allows them to spend that time with their kids and which pays them during the school holidays then who is to say they're wrong? In UK primary schools male teachers are fairly rare, but there is a more even balance in secondary schools. In higher education the balance shifts slightly in favour of male lecturers.

I wonder how much of that age-related shift from female to male is conscious and how much is sub-conscious? I don't believe there's any reason whatsoever why females can't teach at the very highest levels, but I suspect most men would have little or no desire to teach a class of needy 4-year-olds.

 

[lacajun]

IRstuff, I know people at various ages that cannot determine their life’s ambition. Sometimes I’ve questioned my own. And, it took me time to sort things out, which is probably due to that underdeveloped pre-frontal cortex.

There is an effort to “sell” girls and young women on STEM, which I think is wrong. Young women need to know what a good portion of women face in engineering. Not all face it, which is wonderful. But, a good portion do because they’ve left the field. As you know, studies abound on this.

It’s been my experience, as well as others’, that some HSs do an inadequate job of teaching students about various jobs and careers. Many parents are not prepared for those conversations either.

In listening to people, many begin in engineering but cannot manage it and opt for other degree plans. My attorney was good at math in HS but he knew he was not engineering material and never considered it. Many probably could do engineering but they know the degree plan is hard, takes a lot of work, and they want to have fun in college; work is not a high priority. Some young men didn’t follow their engineering fathers because of the work load, heavy travel, long hours, bad politics, no promotions, etc. Their dads didn’t manage their career/family life because their career managed everything. Their sons were watching.

solid7, I completely understand SLTA’s response. I wouldn’t label her anything in a staff meeting or elsewhere. And, if you think carefully, you will understand I have not labeled you either.

SLTA is a young, bright, capable, and experienced Professional Engineer. I respect her a great deal because of her dedication to doing good, solid, honest work as a Professional Engineer, while juggling a lot of other aspects of life common to all of us. I understand her experiences and attitudes as a woman in engineering. After decades of experience, it is just too old to discuss any longer.

Further, I see nothing wrong with passion. To that point, I believe SLTA conducts herself professionally in professional settings else she would not be successful. She knows when, where, and how to show her passion to its most effective use.

Those at large, reading the responses helps me to understand things are not going to change.


Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[IRstuff]

"Why is that a big issue? Nursing is open to men as well as women, but it seems most men choose other fields."

One can argue the same for women in engineering, can't we? It's a big issue for potentially the same reason that women are under-represented in engineering. Certainly, when I was younger, a man wanting to be a nurse would have gotten huge amounts of grief from his "masculine" friends; TLC ∉ men, etc.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[lacajun]

Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It's Gone Too Far by Nellie Bowles.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[CWB1]

OTOH, having sat next to females in multiple offices I have seen them struggle to remain polite and get work done due to streams of guys stopping by daily to chat for 5-10 mins each. We all enjoy a bit of bs once in awhile but some days I want to either hang a sign or start embarrassing folks as the stream of bs small-talkers seems never-ending.

Apologies for lighting the fire then leaving on vacation. To clarify my earlier statement quoted above - I haven't witnessed any overt harassment or even what I would consider flirtatious behavior, only repetitive polite annoyance. Some may view it as harassment but I do not as some managers/supervisors/others suffer through similar annoyance from the office politicians. I'm actually rather skeptical of most harassment claims after serving as a unit EO rep in the military bc I heard many claims and had few proven true. I do not doubt harassment exists, just not to the level which many make it out. Regardless, I thought it relevant to the discussion as no doubt it does contribute to some women leaving the field. Being that there are few women entering the field for various reasons, it likely has a larger effect than in nursing or other female-dominated fields.

 

[ScottyUK]

Nothing in that article should be a sense of pride for anyone involved in any of it. What a mess your society is in, if that article represents where things have arrived at: gender equality is the least of your worries, start by figuring out the basics like common decency and respect for each other first.

 

[hokie66]

ScottyUK,
Agree, but "your society" is too broad. That article is about California, and probably only a small part of that crazy state.

 

[CWB1]

The article is also the opinion of someone after ONLY one year at one company, a pretty bad benchmark of an industry. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I once worked for a company that was lousy enough in most every conceivable way (management, process, attitude, ability, etc) that I thought their hiring a disservice to young engineers. I fulfilled my 12 month obligation to retain the hiring/moving bonus then quickly moved on.

 

[ScottyUK]

hokie66,

Fair point - Ca is about the size of the UK - a country within a country. Still messed up!

CWB1,

US workplaces seem to be quite different to those in the UK. Where I work my female colleagues are treated as equals and in many cases we're friends outside of work. Do we have a laugh? Sure. Is there the occasional flirty comment? Sometimes. Do we know where the line is drawn? Absolutely. I don't imagine for a moment that some of the behaviours described at various points in this thread would be tolerated here, because none of us would allow a friend to be treated like that by anyone, at work or outside of it.

That's not some P.C. policy enforced by the HR dept, that's decent people having respect for each other and looking out for each other.


And no, I don't work in some utopian paradise. Most days I enjoy it. Some days it's the worst place I've ever worked. Now and then it's fantastic.

 

[solid7]

ScottyUK - I have worked in a number of places across the breadth and width of the US - and most of the places that I have worked are exactly as you described. This thread has managed to see much of the issue blown completely out of proportion, or has focused on those who are (possibly) disproportionately affected. In my 22 years of professional experience, the shocking and sordid details that we've heard here, have most certainly been the exception, and not the rule. I've laughed with, and gone out with female engineers, and never once crossed any lines, or done anything that made us ashamed to work together. In fact, I consider it a privilege to be able to have friendships with professional women. Not every sector takes a normalized view of friendship across gender lines. From our perspective, it tends to be completely acceptable, with no suspicion of impropriety, where none is due.

While I understand those who are upset by their own past treatment, I'm also a little perturbed that we're portrayed on an international forum, as a band of savages, who still conk women on the head, and drag them back to our caves. I give every respect to my female co-workers, and never is their gender made an issue.

And to the issue of full gender parity in the workplace... Well, that can't even be a possibility, until education reaches full gender parity. That's not sexist. That's reality. Just keep sorting out the problem children as they rear their nasty little heads, and the generations will sort out the issue. But if we keep forcing quotas and gender based employment, rather than letting the hiring occur organically, I can't see the problem going away.

 

[SnTMan]

I have followed this thread off and on, and I did not intend to wade in, I can't offer anything that hasn't been already said better by others.

But the gender parity thing kinda gets me. Don't get me wrong, I think everybody should have every opportunity to pursue whatever they fancy, but NOBODY is insisting on gender parity for prison inmates, are they?

Regards,

Mike

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[IRstuff]

We've already met that benchmark; we have quite a few women on death row.


truly not trying pick on solid7;
"I'm also a little perturbed that we're portrayed on an international forum, as a band of savages, who still conk women on the head, and drag them back to our caves. "

Ditto, but practically every week is yet another blurb about some female student being sent home because their clothing is "distracting" or "provocative." So, somehow, "boys will be boys," remains the theme and that remains the way we treat our daughters in school. With that sort of attitude in the school system, how can anyone claim that discrimination is a thing of the past with a straight face? We enforce rules that perpetuate the notion that our boys won't be able to help themselves from conking a girl on the head, etc., just because they were wearing leggings to school, or wearing skirts that were one inch above their knees.


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[TehMightyEngineer]

Without much to add that hasn't already been said; I'd just like to comment that I would welcome going out with members of the female persuasion as coworkers and friends. While I'll happily share in a laugh at plenty of sophomoric, "manly" humor, I also do tire of it at times as it sometimes becomes derisive. Thus, I'd certainly love to have a laugh with the ladies as well over some equally trivial, derisive kerfuffle; if only for a break of tempo. Those that say you can't have cross-gender, platonic friendships are clearly not trying hard enough.

In the end I am quite envious solid7, the one engi-nerd of female persuasion I became friends with and often enjoyed a night of cards her and her friends with moved away to become a teacher. Now I'm stuck with only nights out of golf, beer, and football.

...not complaining, though.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/

 

[CWB1]

Scotty, I've lived/worked in both the UK and Germany extensively and never noticed a difference in how female colleagues are treated there vs stateside. No doubt there are many cultural differences leading to different thought processes and approaches to engineering, but basic human decency isnt one of them.

 

[ScottyUK]

CWB1,

I'm pleased to hear that. To be honest I didn't really expect it to be any different, prior to reading this thread. I've worked with quite a few American engineers over the years and every one of the them was courteous and professional. So where are all these awful people who work in American engineering? Or are they a tiny minority who get a lot of press, much like they are here?

 

[solid7]

Of course they are. If the press didn't blow every issue completely up, they couldn't hold the public's interest. If something isn't a big enough problem, they'll make it so...

 

[IRstuff]

I think that's a bit conspiratorial. It's simply a matter of business; the more eyeballs, the more ad revenue, nothing more. That's why we get the news about murders and police car chases and rarely about the smart kid that got straight A's last semester. Who actually wants to watch people on the freeway driving normally?

Lest you think that the news orgs are conspiring on that as well, just pay attention the next time you're in a slow down on the freeway, only to find that everyone was slowing down to look at an accident on the other side of the freeway. Eyeballs on the live happenings, no news org involved or in the way. The bottom line is that the "people" want the "if it bleeds, it leads," news; Auntie Em's bunions hurting isn't news and isn't going to sell ads.

Furthermore, the smarter misogynists know better than to reveal themselves in public. It's the same mechanism at work with pedophiles; how many pedophiles and child abusers do we run across at work? But, they're obviously there in the population; I don't think anyone would argue that they don't exist.

I once and dealings with a sales rep, who was professional all the time, until he wasn't. That one time was when we went to lunch and he pulled out a handicapped parking placard, just so that he won't have to work to find a real parking spot; but, he was "professional" at ALL other times. So, just because you've not had the occasion to see unprofessionalism in your coworkers does not put them in the clear. I worked with a manager for 2 years before he wound up saying, "No tickee, no washee," in my presence, which is offensive to certain parties of Asian descent, like myself, and he never noticed or acknowledged that serious faux pas. Otherwise, perfectly professional...

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[hokie66]

IRstuff,
If that offends you, I think you are too sensitive. Don't bother coming to Australia. My local Chinese laundry operator says that to all his customers.

 

[IRstuff]

There's a big difference between an ethnic Asian and a ethnic white saying things, though, isn't there?

It's the same reason that lets black comedians and performers use the N* word, but it's not acceptable for a white person to do the same.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[solid7]

@IRStuff - Ah, yes... That old, "it's OK for me, but not for you", argument. I can't see how that could possibly go wrong...