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moltenmetal
Chemical
Read the article, THEN discuss...
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Girls in STEM is failing both girls and STEM? 99
- Thread starter moltenmetal
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Read the article, THEN discuss...
"simply someone making a bad joke to someone they view as a friend as well as colleague"
"trivial matters as a singular occurrence of "no tickee no washee"
I completely disagree with this notion that 50 years after the Civil Rights Act that making disparaging jokes about n*** or chin** should even come up in any context. Why would these "jokes" be roiling around in anyone's head, to be randomly spouted out? I see these not as "singular" events, but more as a revealing tell into an otherwise impenetrable facade. I don't necessarily think that such people are "terrible," they are simply on the spectrum of terribleness in human nature. It's no different than the psychopathic spectrum, where a mild case results in business success, and a severe case results in mass murder. The mild psychopaths are hard to spot in a normal interpersonal interaction, but follow them onto a crowded freeway exit, and it'll be absurdly obvious.
And btw, that guy was, in the end, an actual a terrible person, who would say all the right things when needed, but had zero qualms about cheating on specs and delivering product that was claimed to meet spec, but was never tested to spec. The only reason the comment was surprising, at the time, was simply because I hadn't known him more than 3 months. At the end of 2 years, the picture was quite different from the initial impression.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
"trivial matters as a singular occurrence of "no tickee no washee"
I completely disagree with this notion that 50 years after the Civil Rights Act that making disparaging jokes about n*** or chin** should even come up in any context. Why would these "jokes" be roiling around in anyone's head, to be randomly spouted out? I see these not as "singular" events, but more as a revealing tell into an otherwise impenetrable facade. I don't necessarily think that such people are "terrible," they are simply on the spectrum of terribleness in human nature. It's no different than the psychopathic spectrum, where a mild case results in business success, and a severe case results in mass murder. The mild psychopaths are hard to spot in a normal interpersonal interaction, but follow them onto a crowded freeway exit, and it'll be absurdly obvious.
And btw, that guy was, in the end, an actual a terrible person, who would say all the right things when needed, but had zero qualms about cheating on specs and delivering product that was claimed to meet spec, but was never tested to spec. The only reason the comment was surprising, at the time, was simply because I hadn't known him more than 3 months. At the end of 2 years, the picture was quite different from the initial impression.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
nonplussed
Structural
As some have alluded to, all it takes for a female to be put off from studying STEM or joining a male dominated field is an offhand sexist comment or just a general sexist behaviour. Certainly cases of sexual violence and rape should be treated seriously. However, the issue we are now facing is that sexist behaviour has become entirely subjective and based on someones feelings instead of being an objective, clear, and provable crime.
For those of us in Australia, this study was shoved down our throat for about two weeks after it was released ( There was no critical discussion of the study or how it was conducted and any minor suggestion was immediately attacked as being sexist. Apparently, over 50% of the female university students were sexually harassed or assaulted during 1 year and, overwhelmingly, men were the perpetrators. What is included in the new definition of sexual harassment? Inappropriate staring (such as someone looking at you on the bus). Intrusive questions about someones personal life (such as asking what did you do on the weekend). Sexually suggestive comments or jokes (key word here being suggestive).
Weirdly, the study finds bisexual and asexual people are the most likely to be sexually assaulted. Why would this be? Are asexual people telling everyone they're asexual and then being targeted? In that case, why don't they stop advertising there asexuality? Or is it just that they more likely to just perceive there to be sexual assault and harassment where none exist.
The effect that this new sexual harassment definition has is clear (
Regarding blind recruitment, many studies are conflicting and I would be hesitant to create an argument around one of the studies. For example the Australian government halted blind recruitment due to it making things worse Also, (
Regarding male teachers negatively affecting women's interest in STEM, all of my high school maths teachers were female apart from the lower level maths. In my calculus class there was only 1 female student even though calculus was taught only by females. And that 1 female student went on to study economics, not STEM. The most female students was actually in the only class with solely male teachers which was chemistry. Maybe the students chose the classes based on their interests and not on the gender of the teacher.
For those of us in Australia, this study was shoved down our throat for about two weeks after it was released ( There was no critical discussion of the study or how it was conducted and any minor suggestion was immediately attacked as being sexist. Apparently, over 50% of the female university students were sexually harassed or assaulted during 1 year and, overwhelmingly, men were the perpetrators. What is included in the new definition of sexual harassment? Inappropriate staring (such as someone looking at you on the bus). Intrusive questions about someones personal life (such as asking what did you do on the weekend). Sexually suggestive comments or jokes (key word here being suggestive).
Weirdly, the study finds bisexual and asexual people are the most likely to be sexually assaulted. Why would this be? Are asexual people telling everyone they're asexual and then being targeted? In that case, why don't they stop advertising there asexuality? Or is it just that they more likely to just perceive there to be sexual assault and harassment where none exist.
The effect that this new sexual harassment definition has is clear (
http://theconversation.com/male-teachers-are-an-endangered-species-in-australia-new-research-83464).
Since 1980 there has been a linear decline in the number of male teachers in Australia and if this continues, by 2060, there will be no male teachers. Young males see this cultural change clearly and are not stupid. They know they can be punished for anything now, since everything can be perceived as sexual harassment by someone out there. So they are removing themselves from anything to do with children or women out of fear.Regarding blind recruitment, many studies are conflicting and I would be hesitant to create an argument around one of the studies. For example the Australian government halted blind recruitment due to it making things worse Also, (
Regarding male teachers negatively affecting women's interest in STEM, all of my high school maths teachers were female apart from the lower level maths. In my calculus class there was only 1 female student even though calculus was taught only by females. And that 1 female student went on to study economics, not STEM. The most female students was actually in the only class with solely male teachers which was chemistry. Maybe the students chose the classes based on their interests and not on the gender of the teacher.
- Thread starter
- #163
moltenmetal
Chemical
Fascinating- the exact opposite result occurred when blind auditions were used for symphony musicians. In that case, only the quality of the playing mattered, and the previous bias toward male musicians was significantly erased. But I guess if you judge people based solely on their qualifications and experience, the males benefit from an entrenched bias and hence had more access to gain the necessary experience- or so it might be argued.
CWB1, I never would have thought to consider the human being in its entirety. Now that my sarcasm is exhausted...
I have walked a long way with a lot of very difficult people. I have given people many opportunities and a lot of assistance much to my detriment. After decades of walking with people whose actions and words are consistently misaligned, I see the folly of it. I am not talking normal people but people with serious, consistently practiced character flaws.
I do not attribute the cruddy behavior of one man or woman onto the rest of the gender. Nor do I put people into little boxes of what I think they should be. That's juvenile. It's also unrealistic across the spectrum of life. I've worked in large corporations most of my career and have not had the luxury of working with people that were supposed to be a "certain" way according to "my" rules. That's not fair to them. It's also not fair to me, which is my main concern.
A couple of years ago I read some of the global humanitarian documents and learned that even POWs are not to be intimidated because that prevents the full expression of their personalities. That's the way I've tried to conduct myself. I know what stifling is and I don't like it. So, I've taken behaviors I've not wanted in stride. Most men have been well behaved. Others not so much but when you tell them to stop, they stop. Others have no problem ignoring boundaries set by others and no compunction about what they do so they ignore all requests to stop. The habitual offenders, over months and years, are the ones I take exception to and believe most women are the same. The ones I've talked with personally are like me. The habitual offenders all should take exception to. If they'll habitually do it to me, they habitually do it to a man to get what they want.
My dad was in the mob. You cannot teach me much about men that I didn't learn as a child. And, I loved my dad very much.
nonplussed, it may not take much for some women to avoid STEM but that's not true of some of us. Not forgetting who the majority is might be helpful. I'm in a chapter of NSPE and we had a local Dean in yesterday. Remembering who the majority is in engineering was one of his points in discussing the university, its student body makeup, and the makeup of engineering as a whole. There are challenges to overcome. If we cannot overcome them, we, the US, lose.
My HS math teacher was a male and very encouraging to me and others to pursue STEM. He considered raw ability only.
I see your anger over the study. Why such anger and why do you feel it was "shoved" down your throat?
One of my designers told me 20+ years ago that he had always blamed females for male "unwanted" advances, unwed mothers, etc. until he witnessed an event. He went to a HS sporting event. There he witnessed a HS boy put an extreme amount of pressure on a HS girl for sex. He badgered her in spite of her protests. He followed her around to badger her. When she would emerge from the water closet, he was there to badger her. He badgered her until she gave in; he wore her resolve down.
My designer never treated women that way thus didn't think any other man did either. His male relatives and friends didn't. He had no reason to think outside of his own experiences until that night, that game. Then, he got it.
That was his experience. Those are a man's words about his experience and his growth.
I don't see the world in simplistic terms because that does not reflect my experience.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
I have walked a long way with a lot of very difficult people. I have given people many opportunities and a lot of assistance much to my detriment. After decades of walking with people whose actions and words are consistently misaligned, I see the folly of it. I am not talking normal people but people with serious, consistently practiced character flaws.
I do not attribute the cruddy behavior of one man or woman onto the rest of the gender. Nor do I put people into little boxes of what I think they should be. That's juvenile. It's also unrealistic across the spectrum of life. I've worked in large corporations most of my career and have not had the luxury of working with people that were supposed to be a "certain" way according to "my" rules. That's not fair to them. It's also not fair to me, which is my main concern.
A couple of years ago I read some of the global humanitarian documents and learned that even POWs are not to be intimidated because that prevents the full expression of their personalities. That's the way I've tried to conduct myself. I know what stifling is and I don't like it. So, I've taken behaviors I've not wanted in stride. Most men have been well behaved. Others not so much but when you tell them to stop, they stop. Others have no problem ignoring boundaries set by others and no compunction about what they do so they ignore all requests to stop. The habitual offenders, over months and years, are the ones I take exception to and believe most women are the same. The ones I've talked with personally are like me. The habitual offenders all should take exception to. If they'll habitually do it to me, they habitually do it to a man to get what they want.
My dad was in the mob. You cannot teach me much about men that I didn't learn as a child. And, I loved my dad very much.
nonplussed, it may not take much for some women to avoid STEM but that's not true of some of us. Not forgetting who the majority is might be helpful. I'm in a chapter of NSPE and we had a local Dean in yesterday. Remembering who the majority is in engineering was one of his points in discussing the university, its student body makeup, and the makeup of engineering as a whole. There are challenges to overcome. If we cannot overcome them, we, the US, lose.
My HS math teacher was a male and very encouraging to me and others to pursue STEM. He considered raw ability only.
I see your anger over the study. Why such anger and why do you feel it was "shoved" down your throat?
One of my designers told me 20+ years ago that he had always blamed females for male "unwanted" advances, unwed mothers, etc. until he witnessed an event. He went to a HS sporting event. There he witnessed a HS boy put an extreme amount of pressure on a HS girl for sex. He badgered her in spite of her protests. He followed her around to badger her. When she would emerge from the water closet, he was there to badger her. He badgered her until she gave in; he wore her resolve down.
My designer never treated women that way thus didn't think any other man did either. His male relatives and friends didn't. He had no reason to think outside of his own experiences until that night, that game. Then, he got it.
That was his experience. Those are a man's words about his experience and his growth.
I don't see the world in simplistic terms because that does not reflect my experience.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
GregLocock
Automotive
I'm not especially convinced by that Australian Public Service experiment. If assessors are already positively in favor of female applicants, then giving them male names will reduce the recruitment rate for females, even if they are equally qualified.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
To poke fun at other threads I'd ask why anyone would get a tattoo, use tobacco, or do anything else that might be harmful or objectionable to others? Probably for the same reasons folks do most things, because they believe those things are either enjoyable or necessary. Having grown up rather poor with what many would consider "low class" folks, if adults' actions are well meant and not harming others then I see no reason to be upset about or nitpick them. Crack a "white boy" joke on the basketball court amongst the usual jocular trash-talk and I'll probably play into it because I'm terrible at the game and understand its not meant seriously. OTOH, if someone is a horrible person trying to harm others then by all means, scrutinize their actions all you want.
Ms. Quillin,
Do you believe that if workplace sexism were eliminated, and all salaries for all jobs were the identical, that women would be 50% of the engineering workforce?
Do you believe that if workplace sexism were eliminated, and all salaries for all jobs were the identical, that women would be 50% of the garbage collection workforce?
I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist. I think it absolutely does. I'm merely asking for clarifications of your position. If not 50%, what percentage do you think these two example professions would naturally stabilize at, if sexism went away and there were no salary pressures involved?
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
Do you believe that if workplace sexism were eliminated, and all salaries for all jobs were the identical, that women would be 50% of the engineering workforce?
Do you believe that if workplace sexism were eliminated, and all salaries for all jobs were the identical, that women would be 50% of the garbage collection workforce?
I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist. I think it absolutely does. I'm merely asking for clarifications of your position. If not 50%, what percentage do you think these two example professions would naturally stabilize at, if sexism went away and there were no salary pressures involved?
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
beej67, no and no. I would expect engineering to be on par with doctors, surgeons, attorneys, and judges, which is around 34%, if memory serves.
I don't advocate for 50/50 either. Again, I think young people need to get the truth about professions (great, good, bad, and ugly) and determine their own course for a career. Parents and too many others, in my limited experience, dictate or sell young people on specific careers, which may or may not interest them. I have a friend who was pressured to study medicine, which he did and dropped out because that was not his true interest. He ended up programming sans degree because that was a way to earn money and not much else. Young people don't need to be derailed through pressure or glitzy sales pitches. They need truth because that is the basis of sound decisions.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
I don't advocate for 50/50 either. Again, I think young people need to get the truth about professions (great, good, bad, and ugly) and determine their own course for a career. Parents and too many others, in my limited experience, dictate or sell young people on specific careers, which may or may not interest them. I have a friend who was pressured to study medicine, which he did and dropped out because that was not his true interest. He ended up programming sans degree because that was a way to earn money and not much else. Young people don't need to be derailed through pressure or glitzy sales pitches. They need truth because that is the basis of sound decisions.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
It seems like civil and environmental engineering have the most women compared to other engineering disciplines, from my personal anecdotal experience. It was like that in school, too. Yet, as closely connected to construction as these disciplines are, there are WAY less women in construction management or superintendent positions. Do you think we should be raising the participation of women in construction, like engineering? Just curious what others, particularly the women here think. I have no opinion one way or the other.
The issue is really to identify and remove institutional impediments to participation, and not some arbitrary "participation rate;" by this I mean removing all the hidden and overt biases that are built into process of becoming an engineer, or a doctor, or whatever. You, and you alone, should be able to make that, or any other, choice for yourself, without hindrances or slantings of the truth.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
controlnovice
Electrical
...and then there's this:
Boys are whizzes at STEM
...and yes, that is a pun.
______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.
Boys are whizzes at STEM
...and yes, that is a pun.
______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.
And yet, our favorite cartoons, such as The Roadrunner, belie the notion of parabolic motion.
Seems to a major stretch; one could just as easily, and possibly more plausibly, argue that playing catch would also lead to insights into parabolic motion.
And let's not forget that parabolic motion is, what, a couple of weeks out of an entirety of high school physics?
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I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
Seems to a major stretch; one could just as easily, and possibly more plausibly, argue that playing catch would also lead to insights into parabolic motion.
And let's not forget that parabolic motion is, what, a couple of weeks out of an entirety of high school physics?
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I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
here's some interesting results from an opinion poll:
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I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
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I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
IRStuff, this works nicely with your opinion poll, Pew Research Deep Dive Into Party Affiliation After the last POTUS election, I am considering becoming an independent. I didn't watch the GOP primary debates because of one man. After 15-20 minutes, continuing was pointless.
From the NY Times, Women Around the World Report Gender Issues in Tech Firms
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
From the NY Times, Women Around the World Report Gender Issues in Tech Firms
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
GregLocock
Automotive
Arts and crafts? Really? Is someone using a 3d printer to make a sculpture engineering any more than someone who welds together an armature and covers it in clay?
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
I think it's a bit more of real-world applicability, which is the same complaint that males often make about engineering curricula; the standard engineering curriculum is all about the physics, the math, and the engineering equations, and little about how to actually apply the theory to practice. It's not that different that the desire to have new grads be able to do CAD from the get go.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
nonplussed
Structural
Greg, I think the article's got a great point. The best way to increase females in STEM is to redefine STEM to include arts. Why has no one thought of this before?
That being said, I think drawoh is trolling us a bit
That being said, I think drawoh is trolling us a bit
I have no interest in art beyond admiring it but do consider engineering to be very creative. To me, that's part of the story engineers need to articulate.
The Central Chapter of NSPE-CO toured the Colorado Bureau of Investigation last week, which was very interesting. They have many scientists working there but no engineers. CBI is dominated by women (~70%) and for the simple reason that they wanted to help people and do something relevant to help humanity but as scientists. Fair enough. But medications, technology, energy, etc. also benefit humanity greatly by improving our standard of living. That needs to be part of the engineering story, too. Also, the CBI encourages all of its scientists to get a technical MS. It is required for management because the technology and science are so sophisticated now you cannot lead projects and people without the knowledge that comes with advanced degrees.
Another note on the female participation rate at CBI, when the Director's career began 21 years ago, criminal science investigations were dominated by men (~70%). Twenty-one years ago a BS was sufficient for all positions.
Engineering schools have a delicate line to walk providing enough practical and enough theory to provide paths to industry and graduate schools of engineering. Engineering students should be able to transition to industry with a heavier emphasis on theory over practical applications. It takes thought but it can be done. Personally, I don't think engineering curricula need to be further watered down.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
The Central Chapter of NSPE-CO toured the Colorado Bureau of Investigation last week, which was very interesting. They have many scientists working there but no engineers. CBI is dominated by women (~70%) and for the simple reason that they wanted to help people and do something relevant to help humanity but as scientists. Fair enough. But medications, technology, energy, etc. also benefit humanity greatly by improving our standard of living. That needs to be part of the engineering story, too. Also, the CBI encourages all of its scientists to get a technical MS. It is required for management because the technology and science are so sophisticated now you cannot lead projects and people without the knowledge that comes with advanced degrees.
Another note on the female participation rate at CBI, when the Director's career began 21 years ago, criminal science investigations were dominated by men (~70%). Twenty-one years ago a BS was sufficient for all positions.
Engineering schools have a delicate line to walk providing enough practical and enough theory to provide paths to industry and graduate schools of engineering. Engineering students should be able to transition to industry with a heavier emphasis on theory over practical applications. It takes thought but it can be done. Personally, I don't think engineering curricula need to be further watered down.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
nonplussed,
I took art in high school, and I drew cartoons for the student papers in college. I posted a reply to the article down below, pointing out that creativity is something separate from engineering. By the time you hit eighteen, you either are creative, or you are not. I did not point out that I think the arts community grossly overestimates their creativity.
To design machines like I do, you need to be creative, and you need to understand how the machines work.
--
JHG
I took art in high school, and I drew cartoons for the student papers in college. I posted a reply to the article down below, pointing out that creativity is something separate from engineering. By the time you hit eighteen, you either are creative, or you are not. I did not point out that I think the arts community grossly overestimates their creativity.
To design machines like I do, you need to be creative, and you need to understand how the machines work.
--
JHG
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